Can You Unbag/Bag Long Guns @ the Car?

[Religious Shooter]

Under USPSA rules can you unbag/bag your long gun at the car?

Mr. Nik says "No": http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...st&p=748271

Huh? Who unbags long guns at a car? That's what safety areas are for --- see Rifle or Shotgun Rule 2.4. See also Section 5.2, which specifically discusses how a competitor may handle his rifle or shotgun when not under the supervision of an RO. This may be inconvenient --- but it's really not hard to comply with.

Mr. Tim says "Yes": http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...st&p=749557

NOW....the rifle and shotgun....again we are talking USPSA, as opposed to those 'outlaw' matches. Look at the rifle rules 5.2, you basically would be able to unbag at the car...lay the rifle out with no DQ.

So who is right? (Or who should be right. )

USPSA Rifle Competition Rules

January 2008

Revised March 26, 2008

2.4 Safety Areas

The host organization is responsible for the construction and placement of a sufficient number of Safety Areas for the match. They should be conveniently placed and easily identified with signs. Safety Areas should include a table with the safe direction and boundaries clearly shown. Safety Areas should include a suitable gun rack or racks, as they are intended for use by all USPSA disciplines, particularly during Tournaments.

2.4.1 Competitors are permitted to use the Safety Areas for the activities stated below provided they remain within the boundaries of the Safety Area and the firearm is pointed in a safe direction. Violations are subject to match disqualification (see Rules 10.5.1 & 10.5.12).

2.4.1.1 Casing and uncasing unloaded firearms.

2.4.1.2 Practice the mounting and “dry-firing” of unloaded firearms.

2.4.1.3 Practice the insertion and removal of empty magazines and/or to cycle the action of a firearm.

2.4.1.4 Conduct inspections, stripping, cleaning, repairs and maintenance of firearms, component parts and other accessories.

2.4.2 Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines, loaded speed loading devices and live rounds must not be handled in a Safety Area under any circumstances (see Rule 10.5.12).

...

5.2 Carry and Storage and Competitor Equipment

5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, the competitor’s rifle must be unloaded and carried or stored in one of the following conditions (see Rule 10.5.1).

5.2.1.1 Slung from the shoulder with the rifle reasonably vertical. The action must remain open or be closed onto the chamber flag, or

5.2.1.2 Carried/shouldered with the rifle reasonably vertical. The action must remain open or be closed onto the chamber flag. Match Directors may require this to be “vertically upwards” or “vertically downwards” providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner, or

5.2.1.3 Placed in racks, or otherwise placed, with the muzzle pointing in a direction as specified by a Range Officer. The action must remain open or be closed onto the chamber flag. Match Organizers should make available, within easy access to all stages, sufficient gun racks for the numbers of competitors attending the match, or

5.2.1.4 Carried in a slip or case (it is preferred that the rifle is carried reasonably vertical). Alternatively, the rifle may be transported or stored without a slip or case, whether or not reasonably vertical, in a mobile rack or carrier, provided the firearm complies with Rule 5.2.1.5 and is only placed or removed under the supervision of a Range Officer, or while in a Safety Area, or when being transferred directly to/from a stationary rack as described in Rule 5.2.1.3.

5.2.1.5 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or device, that is clearly visible externally to the gun, at all times when the rifle is not in use (except whilst carrying out the activities permitted under Rule 2.4.1).

5.2.1.6 Under no circumstances, except when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct instruction issued by a Range Officer, will the rifle be loaded (see Rule 10.5.13) or have empty detachable magazines fitted except that a competitor may practice the insertion and removal of empty detachable magazines while in a Safety Area.

(Thread Drift: Note the bolded section. )

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area, or elsewhere deemed safe by a Range Officer, or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer may invoke a match disqualification. This does not apply to the carrying of rifles where Rule 5.2.1 will apply. A match disqualification may be invoked in the following circumstances:

a) Violation of the gun being carried reasonably vertical in accordance with Rules 5.2.1.1 and 5.2.1.2, or

Violation of the muzzle direction requirements of Rule 5.2.1.3,

or

c) Failure to comply with Rule 5.2.1.5, or

d) Failure to comply with Rule 5.2.1.7.

...

Contrast this with:

Pistol 5.2 and 5.2.1

5.2 Holsters and Other Competitor Equipment

5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1).

[Fullauto_Shooter]

I don't know what the correct "book" answer is but I can tell you that probably at least 80% of the folks shooting the 3 Gun Nationals this past year in Tulsa "unbagged" their long guns at their vehicle and placed them into carts.

Edited June 5, 2008 by Fullauto_Shooter

[Flexmoney]

Hasn't this been covered?

Are you going to keep asking until you get an answer that you like?

2.4.1 Competitors are permitted to use the Safety Areas for the activities stated below provided they remain within the boundaries of the Safety Area and the firearm is pointed in a safe direction. Violations are subject to match disqualification (see Rules 10.5.1 & 10.5.12).

2.4.1.1 Casing and uncasing unloaded firearms.

[Religious Shooter]

As far as I know it hasn't. It's pretty muddy to me.

As noted by FA Shooter the majority of the shooters at the MG Nationals are unbagging at the car. I think it is safe to say that they don't subscribe to your interpretation.

And between Nik and Tim... what's the answer?

Are you going to keep asking until you get an answer that you like?

Edited June 5, 2008 by Religious Shooter

[Johann the Horrible]

IMHO you earned a DQ if you "un-bag" the guns in your car. Except if your car is not on the range though, then it is not covered. Why take the chance "un-bag" in the safety area, that is why we have them.!

[mactiger]

I didn't cruise the parking lot looking for violators at last years MG nationals, but it seemed to me that most of the competitors had bagged guns on their carts. I'm not saying it didn't happen, (unbagging at the car), I'm just saying I didn't see it. Had I seen it, it would have resulted in a DQ.

The rules are quite clear: no bagging/unbagging anywhere other than a safety area or on the range with the RO's supervision/permission--going into the rack on the stage is ok. 5.2.1.4 is applicable. I don't see where "Mr. Tim" gets his interpretation: 5.2.1.4 Carried in a slip or case (it is preferred that the rifle is carried reasonably vertical). Alternatively, the rifle may be transported or stored without a slip or case, whether or not reasonably vertical, in a mobile rack or carrier, provided the firearm complies with Rule 5.2.1.5 and is only placed or removed under the supervision of a Range Officer, or while in a Safety Area, or when being transferred directly to/from a stationary rack as described in Rule 5.2.1.3.

Over the past several years, I've seen some pretty sloppy gun handling on the part of long gun shooters--stuff that they'd never consider doing with a pistol seems commonplace to do with a rifle or shotgun. Unbagging at the car is only one example.

The part about inserting empty magazines should be no surprise. It's allowed for pistol, too.

Troy

[Religious Shooter]

Thank you sir.

[AikiDale]

I'm not clear either (blame it on Tom Cruise if you like).

Is one required by implication to have a bag for long guns? If one does not must one drive one's truck into the safety area to remove it safely from the truck? Or take an RO to the truck to observe one removing one's rifle therefrom?

[D.Hayden]

Troy.. thank you!

I have to say.. I don't think I've ever seen that followed by 100% of the shooters.

It depends on the type of case you have.. a Big Pelican case in the car.. people just nomally take them out.

I've started putting mine in Socks..

Edited June 5, 2008 by BerKim

[Nik Habicht]

I'm not clear either (blame it on Tom Cruise if you like).

Is one required by implication to have a bag for long guns? If one does not must one drive one's truck into the safety area to remove it safely from the truck? Or take an RO to the truck to observe one removing one's rifle therefrom?

Dale,

how do you carry your pistols to the pistol match? (Assuming that your competition piece is different from any CCW you may or may not be carrying with you)

What would make long guns any different for USPSA purposes?

[AikiDale]

I'm not clear either (blame it on Tom Cruise if you like).

Is one required by implication to have a bag for long guns? If one does not must one drive one's truck into the safety area to remove it safely from the truck? Or take an RO to the truck to observe one removing one's rifle therefrom?

Dale,

how do you carry your pistols to the pistol match? (Assuming that your competition piece is different from any CCW you may or may not be carrying with you)

What would make long guns any different for USPSA purposes?

Neither my rifle nor shotgun fit in my Shooters Connection Bag!

They lay, unloaded, in the back of my car. How do I get them out of the car at a match under the rules?

ETA: If there is a loading/unloading station provided there is no problem....

Edited June 5, 2008 by AikiDale

[mactiger]

This specific question was about bagging/unbagging at your car. If the long gun isn't bagged, then I suppose a very loose interpretation of the rules would allow you to remove it from the back seat or trunk or cargo area and carry it. You are allowed to carry it on your person (slung, but you have to handle it with your hands to get it that way) provided the muzzle is vertical and the action is open or flagged. Another problem I've seen is people carrying their rifles in a cart or on their person muzzle down and then apparently sweeping most of the squad when they rack it on the stage.

By the letter of the rules, if you arrive with your gun bagged, it has to stay that way until you are either 1) in a safe area, or 2) under the authority of a range official or racking it on a stage per 5.2.1.3.

Do I believe that this always happens? Sure---the check is in the mail......

Troy

Edited June 5, 2008 by mactiger

[AikiDale]

Troy,

While we are on the topic I'd like to drift just a little: is the approximately 45 degree angle of a gun in the common 'baby jogger' style cart close enough to vertical to pass muster?

[Nik Habicht]

I'm not clear either (blame it on Tom Cruise if you like).

Is one required by implication to have a bag for long guns? If one does not must one drive one's truck into the safety area to remove it safely from the truck? Or take an RO to the truck to observe one removing one's rifle therefrom?

Dale,

how do you carry your pistols to the pistol match? (Assuming that your competition piece is different from any CCW you may or may not be carrying with you)

What would make long guns any different for USPSA purposes?

Neither my rifle nor shotgun fit in my Shooters Connection Bag!

O.K. --- that was kind of my point though. :D Why treat long guns any differently? How tough would it be to acquire a bag or a couple of bags for long guns? I've found some of mine used at local gunstores for less than $20 each, others came with long guns on purchase......

[AikiDale]

I'm not clear either (blame it on Tom Cruise if you like).

Is one required by implication to have a bag for long guns? If one does not must one drive one's truck into the safety area to remove it safely from the truck? Or take an RO to the truck to observe one removing one's rifle therefrom?

Dale,

how do you carry your pistols to the pistol match? (Assuming that your competition piece is different from any CCW you may or may not be carrying with you)

What would make long guns any different for USPSA purposes?

Neither my rifle nor shotgun fit in my Shooters Connection Bag!

O.K. --- that was kind of my point though. Why treat long guns any differently? How tough would it be to acquire a bag or a couple of bags for long guns? I've found some of mine used at local gunstores for less than $20 each, others came with long guns on purchase......

It's not really a problem obviously for most of us most of the time. On those occasions, like last month, when one is without a proper bag, the question arises. I had this cool Blackhawk bag I purchased here on the forum to carry my AR and Remmy. The new improved Benelli was a tad too long to fit! I did not know this until it was time to load up to head to the match however. I just carried my long guns, vertically, to their appointed racks. Had I taken a pistol not in a case from the trunk of the car and put it in my holster at the same time I could have been DQ'd under the rules, had I been observed or turned myself in.

[mactiger]

Troy,

While we are on the topic I'd like to drift just a little: is the approximately 45 degree angle of a gun in the common 'baby jogger' style cart close enough to vertical to pass muster?

Yes, since the same rules (open action or flagged) apply, and it's basically a "racked" gun while in the carrier.

Troy

[AikiDale]

Troy,

While we are on the topic I'd like to drift just a little: is the approximately 45 degree angle of a gun in the common 'baby jogger' style cart close enough to vertical to pass muster?

Yes, since the same rules (open action or flagged) apply, and it's basically a "racked" gun while in the carrier.

Troy

That's good news! I just found one used for $49.

[Religious Shooter]

I've started putting mine in Socks..

Is there a sock big enough to fit a scoped AR?

I guess that's probably the way to go. Have the gun in a sock while in a case. When you get to the stage unbagging the socked gun at the car would be cool?

[John Baier]

I worked MG nationals last year and was amazed how many competitors did not follow basic safety protocols. And I'm not the only RO that noticed. Seriously folks, We are strict in regards to handgun safety and it's not any different with long guns.

[Religious Shooter]

What did you see as unsafe?

It would be interesting to know what the USPSA RO's at the MG Nationals saw as unsafe.

[D.Hayden]

I've started putting mine in Socks..

Is there a sock big enough to fit a scoped AR?

I guess that's probably the way to go. Have the gun in a sock while in a case. When you get to the stage unbagging the socked gun at the car would be cool?

Pelican Case.. I have the AR in a case, the Benelli in a sock...

[Chuck Anderson]

I worked MG nationals last year and was amazed how many competitors did not follow basic safety protocols. And I'm not the only RO that noticed. Seriously folks, We are strict in regards to handgun safety and it's not any different with long guns.

That makes me a little nervous if multiple RO's are noticing competitors not following basic safety protocols and not doing anything about it.

[John Baier]

Oh boy, opened a can of worms on this one.

The two biggest offenses that were talked about was sweeping and handling a long gun outside the safety area or under the direct supervision of a range officer. Both at least on my stage were corrected, warnings were given and 1 Dq was givien. The offenses occurred primarily when a competitor was taking their long guns out of their carts or heading up to the pre-loading station that we had set up. Seriously, the RO's did their best to inform competitors of the proper way long guns should be handled on their stages. If we would of had more rifle racks i think most of problems would of been eliminated.

[Doug H.]

Oh boy, opened a can of worms on this one.

The two biggest offenses that were talked about was sweeping and handling a long gun outside the safety area or under the direct supervision of a range officer. Both at least on my stage were corrected, warnings were given and 1 Dq was givien. The offenses occurred primarily when a competitor was taking their long guns out of their carts or heading up to the pre-loading station that we had set up. Seriously, the RO's did their best to inform competitors of the proper way long guns should be handled on their stages. If we would of had more rifle racks i think most of problems would of been eliminated.

+1 and +1! I worked stage 12 at the 2007 MGN and I fully agree. With the way the rules are written rifle racks at every stage should be required.

Doug

[Cardinal]

With the way the rules are written rifle racks at every stage should be required.

Doug

Agreed. I attended the Norwegian/Nordic Rifle "nationals" last year and there were racks or an area where competitors would leave the rifles at every stage.

Some competitors also only unbagged at LAMR and put the rifle back in the bag after the COF.