Falling steel plates

[Forester]

Heres the situation: A club is using steel plates set on a stand but does not have the "lips" on the stands or plates to keep them from rotating 90* to shooter if they get an edge hit.

If a shooter turns a plate 90* creating a very very tough, maybe dangerous target what rule applies?

Currently the ruling at the club is that the shooter can have a re-shoot if he stops without firing even 1 more shot and asks for a re-shoot. I can not find any justification for this in the rulebook...but I am far from an expert on every in and out of the rules.

Next situation: A club is using a swinger with 2 falling 8" plates, activated by 6" square activator. When they come to a stop, both plates are hidden by a vision barrier. Because they are swinging you get multiple opportunities to shoot the plates, but they are hidden when they stop.

How should these plates be scored if they are not engaged at all or simply missed by the shooter?

Last Question: Am I correct in thinking that steel targets must be at least 10 yards from the shooter? I for one am not real crazy about some 6 yard steel I have seen recently.

Thanks folks...I tried to scrub all mentions of what club I am taking issue with, so sorry for the dry tone...

[lynn jones]

Heres the situation: A club is using steel plates set on a stand but does not have the "lips" on the stands or plates to keep them from rotating 90* to shooter if they get an edge hit.

If a shooter turns a plate 90* creating a very very tough, maybe dangerous target what rule applies? reshoot, range equipment failure

Currently the ruling at the club is that the shooter can have a re-shoot if he stops without firing even 1 more shot and asks for a re-shoot. I can not find any justification for this in the rulebook...but I am far from an expert on every in and out of the rules.

Next situation: A club is using a swinger with 2 falling 8" plates, activated by 6" square activator. When they come to a stop, both plates are hidden by a vision barrier. Because they are swinging you get multiple opportunities to shoot the plates, but they are hidden when they stop.

How should these plates be scored if they are not engaged at all or simply missed by the shooter? disappearing target

Last Question: Am I correct in thinking that steel targets must be at least 10 yards from the shooter? I for one am not real crazy about some 6 yard steel I have seen recently. no book in hand, but, i think it's eight yards

Thanks folks...I tried to scrub all mentions of what club I am taking issue with, so sorry for the dry tone...

[ima45dv8]

Heres the situation: A club is using steel plates set on a stand but does not have the "lips" on the stands or plates to keep them from rotating 90* to shooter if they get an edge hit.

If a shooter turns a plate 90* creating a very very tough, maybe dangerous target what rule applies?

Currently the ruling at the club is that the shooter can have a re-shoot if he stops without firing even 1 more shot and asks for a re-shoot. I can not find any justification for this in the rulebook...but I am far from an expert on every in and out of the rules.

4.3.1.6 Unlike Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration

challenges. If a scoring metal plate has been hit but fails

to fall or overturn, the Range Officer shall declare range equipment

failure and order the competitor to reshoot the course of

fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified.

Next situation: A club is using a swinger with 2 falling 8" plates, activated by 6" square activator. When they come to a stop, both plates are hidden by a vision barrier. Because they are swinging you get multiple opportunities to shoot the plates, but they are hidden when they stop.

How should these plates be scored if they are not engaged at all or simply missed by the shooter?

9.9.1 Moving scoring targets which present at least a portion of the highest

scoring area when at rest following the completion of their designed

movement, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always

incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties (exception see Rule

9.2.4.4).

9.9.2 Moving scoring targets, which do not comply with the above criteria

are considered disappearing targets and will not incur failure to shoot

at or miss penalties except where Rule 9.9.3 applies.

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss

penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates

the target movement.

Last Question: Am I correct in thinking that steel targets must be at least 10 yards from the shooter? I for one am not real crazy about some 6 yard steel I have seen recently.

Thanks folks...I tried to scrub all mentions of what club I am taking issue with, so sorry for the dry tone...

2.1.3 Minimum Distances – Whenever metal targets or metal hard cover are

used in a course of fire, precautions must be taken so that competitors

and Match Officials maintain a minimum distance of 23 feet from them

while they are being shot. Where possible, this should be done with

physical barriers. If Fault Lines are used to limit the approach to metal

targets, they must be placed at least 26 feet from the targets so that the

competitor may inadvertently fault the line and still be outside the 23

feet minimum distance (see Rule 10.5.17). Care should also be taken in

respect of metal props in the line of fire.

[Joe4d]

"Currently the ruling at the club is that the shooter can have a re-shoot if he stops without firing even 1 more shot and asks for a re-shoot. I can not find any justification for this in the rulebook...but I am far from an expert on every in and out of the rules."

This is wrong, it's a range failure whether the competitor fires an extra shot or not, He reshoots whether he asks or not. Nothing to do with being an expert or hidden rule meanings. It is written in pretty plain English to me.

[Flexmoney]

Forester,

The questions you have are going to be common things that come up from time to time when people run shooting matches. What is great about USPSA is that you get to pull on the collective experience of all those that have gone before...it's a prett good sized pool of experience too. (Lots of matches...every weekend...for years and years)

The USPSA rule book is pretty comprehensive. It's not perfect, but it's damn good.

If you can, you should try to get with USPSA and schedule a Level I Range Officer class. http://www.nroi.org/

[Forester]

Forester,

The questions you have are going to be common things that come up from time to time when people run shooting matches. What is great about USPSA is that you get to pull on the collective experience of all those that have gone before...it's a prett good sized pool of experience too. (Lots of matches...every weekend...for years and years)

The USPSA rule book is pretty comprehensive. It's not perfect, but it's damn good.

If you can, you should try to get with USPSA and schedule a Level I Range Officer class. http://www.nroi.org/

I would love to take the RO class, but the one opportunity for me to take it this year was just unworkable for me. As for the club in question above...I don't think any, or many would be interested, and I know the MD would not be behind it because it would create a situation where people finally realize he is making up his own rules.

[kevin c]

...I know the MD would not be behind it because it would create a situation where people finally realize he is making up his own rules.

Then it's not really a USPSA match...

As has been said many times before, you can't pick and choose out of the book which rules you want to use, nor alter them to suit your whim.

If this is one person's show, take it or leave it, and he's not willing to accept advice or help, then you're stuck with an outlaw match, quasi USPSA at best.

If he wants help with the match, or is open to ideas, maybe you can work with him and make it better over time.

As far as the steel goes, 23 feet, with 3 feet of fault room. Closer is officially considered hazardous, 30 feet used to be the rule. It really depends on the condition of the steel and the bullets used on it.

[D.Hayden]

We had this same situation at one local club here... over the last 2 to 3 years.. we've gone 100% USPSA style. It takes time, and as new member come in looking for consistancy has helped. (and a great deal of effort by Jim E. - if he sees this )

Although the club isn't USPSA affiliated, principally because it won't let non-members shoot.

Many of us shoot at multiple clubs, and have a few CROs and RO's.. but it's been a long road to get changed.

[Flexmoney]

Get with your Section Coordinator.

He can help steer your wayward match director in the proper direction.

[Jack Suber]

Get with your Section Coordinator.

He can help steer your wayward match director in the proper direction.

As an SC, I second Flex's recommendation. A hybrid USPSA match is not a good thing and can harm our organization.

As for distance to steel, it is possible that certain clubs have established minimum distances that are different from USPSA's for safety reasons. My home club, for example, has established 10 yds as the minimum distance. Club rules and USPSA Rules can not over-ride it.

[Johann the Horrible]

I was hit by a bullet some 20 meters away from where it hit the steel. There was enough force to knock me down and I took a trip to the hospital. Had me two beautiful shiners from that one shot.(The bullet hit me between the eyes and because the idiot just took of his safety glasses I got to bleed some). At 6 meters( a meter being about the same length as a yard) that bullet might have penetrated my thick skull - safety glasses or not. Steel at 6 yards would cause me to leave rather early -like just before the match.

[Jack Suber]

I was hit by a bullet some 20 meters away from where it hit the steel. There was enough force to knock me down and I took a trip to the hospital. Had me two beautiful shiners from that one shot.(The bullet hit me between the eyes and because the idiot just took of his safety glasses I got to bleed some). At 6 meters( a meter being about the same length as a yard) that bullet might have penetrated my thick skull - safety glasses or not. Steel at 6 yards would cause me to leave rather early -like just before the match.

Yep, freaky things can happen with steel. I have been shooting the plate rack (15 yds) and had a piece of bullet frag hit me right on the tip of my trigger finger. Hit hard enough that it cut into my finger nail.

A couple of weeks ago a buddy of mine who was ROing my son got hit in the tongue! I am curious to see if he will be keeping his mouth closed from now on....

Eye-protection is a no brainer!

[Lee King]

I was hit by a bullet some 20 meters away from where it hit the steel. There was enough force to knock me down and I took a trip to the hospital. Had me two beautiful shiners from that one shot.(The bullet hit me between the eyes and because the idiot just took of his safety glasses I got to bleed some). At 6 meters( a meter being about the same length as a yard) that bullet might have penetrated my thick skull - safety glasses or not. Steel at 6 yards would cause me to leave rather early -like just before the match.

A couple of weeks ago a buddy of mine who was ROing my son got hit in the tongue! I am curious to see if he will be keeping his mouth closed from now on....

When have you ever know Tee-um to keep his mouth shut!!

[Jack Suber]

I was hit by a bullet some 20 meters away from where it hit the steel. There was enough force to knock me down and I took a trip to the hospital. Had me two beautiful shiners from that one shot.(The bullet hit me between the eyes and because the idiot just took of his safety glasses I got to bleed some). At 6 meters( a meter being about the same length as a yard) that bullet might have penetrated my thick skull - safety glasses or not. Steel at 6 yards would cause me to leave rather early -like just before the match.

A couple of weeks ago a buddy of mine who was ROing my son got hit in the tongue! I am curious to see if he will be keeping his mouth closed from now on....

When have you ever know Tee-um to keep his mouth shut!!

Tee-uum will never learn....

[George Jones]

As for distance to steel, it is possible that certain clubs have established minimum distances that are different from USPSA's for safety reasons. My home club, for example, has established 10 yds as the minimum distance. Club rules and USPSA Rules can not over-ride it.

USPSA's distances are minimum distances. Nothing in the rules prevents a club from using a greater distance if that is their preference. No over-ride necessary.

[George Jones]

Although the club isn't USPSA affiliated, principally because it won't let non-members shoot.

That situation may not be a deal breaker. It really depends on the relationship (structure) of the range/facility and your club. If your club is independent of the range, the range's restriction is outside of your control. That should not prevent you from affiliating as long as you do not restrict participation of those who show up (are allowed to use the range premises).

If, on the other hand, your club is not independent, then it could be said that the restriction is something in which you are involved and would be a problem.

[wide45]

Recently shot at a club that had a number of plates in the stages. All plates were constructed with a hinge, so as to prevent them from turning.

Unfortunately, an edge hit would sometimes not knock them over. The officials were not watching the plates, and were not ordering reshoots if a plate was hit and did not fall.

They spent a lot of money on new plates, that did not fix the problem.

Edited June 9, 2008 by wide45

[JKSNIPER]

Guys,

A steel target manufacturer has on its website that the MINIMUM safe distance for handgun vs steel is 25 yards and anyone within 75 yards of the targets should wear long sleeves and long pants, eye pro, ear pro when shooting steel targets.

Shooting steel within 6 yards without using frangible ammo would seem to be unsafe from the get go.

JK

Website is www.letargets.com click on the tab for steel targets.