Holstered handgun question

[Glen]

In regards to the OP, it would be a DQ. You must have your gun

cased, or in a gun rug, or in a range bag before entering the

match area.

For the rest of the discussion ... I don't understand the difficulty in

changing equipment configurations. Just before entering the safe

area, I put all my ammo in my range bag or in my cart. I step into

the safe area and make my changes. I step out of the safe area

and re-ammo as required. No way would I be walking back and forth

to my truck. Too much like exercise.

Glen

[Flexmoney]

Just following orders?

Hell yeah it's following orders. That is what order is. You get chaos when you pick and choose which rules you are going to follow...or enforce. If it means that you gotta hump a bit more...so be it.

You play by the rules of the game you are playing.

If you believe there is a better way to do it, then get the rule changed. Don't ask the Range Officers to ignore the rules.

[shred]

So long as I don't actually point the gun at anybody, I can whip off my belt+holster and run through a stage looking through the sights? That wouldn't be "unsafe", per-se either.

We don't do hot ranges, even though lots of military and police and other civilians do it safely all the time.

Such is the nature of rules that convenience sometimes has to take a back seat.

[Religious Shooter]

So... has anybody been to a USPSA MG/3Gun match where they allow you to unbag/bag your long gun in your car?

If you don't DQ someone who unbags a longgun at the car... how can you DQ someone who unbelts at the car?

[Religious Shooter]

The rules are the rules. If you don't like them, try to get them changed, but don't expect people to ignore rule violations just because you don't agree with a particular rule.

I guess you don't realize that I don't think that the rule has been interpreted correctly. That Amidon ruling was 18+ years ago. The ruling talks about talking a holstered handgun out of the belt. In all those years... what are the chances that it morphed into what is being taught now. And that what is being taught isn't based on any ruling?

And furthermore... how can it be OK to unbag a long gun at the car (where you actually touch the gun)... and yet taking off a belt with a handgun (without even touching the gun!) is an automatic DQ?

[Flexmoney]

USPSA Handgun Rules, January 2008 Edition

5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1).

What isn't clear there?

It says:

- Handgun

- Must

- Unloaded

- in a gun case (or)

- in a gun bag (or)

- in a holster THAT IS...securely attached to a belt...ON their person (not a belt in their trunk, nor back seat, not over the shoulder)

The only (2) exceptions are...the safety area...or having an RO supervise.

[Religious Shooter]

It says "carry". What's your definition of "carry"?

I'm I carrying the gun in the video?

And what does it mean by "storage?"

As far as I can tell I am neither storing or carrying the gun. All I am going to do is unbelting and putting or taking off ammunition carriers.

Edited April 28, 2008 by Religious Shooter

[Flexmoney]

Carry and Storage are defined right there in the rule...

I'm done. Good luck at arb.

[Punkin Chunker]

Again I'm curious --- what is your particular issue with following the rule? How badly does it inconvenience you? I've answered yours --- want to take a crack at mine?

I have issue with it in that it calls what I did in the video unsafe gun handling. I mean for Pete's sake did I even touch the gun?

By DQ'ing me you are grouping the practice with: an accidental discharge, sweeping people with a loaded gun, breaking the 180 with a loaded gun... etc. That's crazy. DQ for what was done in the video?!??!

I also have an issue in that there is a difference in what Amidon ruled in 1990 (taking a holstered gun off the belt and bagging it) and what is being discussed. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. If the RO's you have talked to are basing it in the 1990 decision... they have taken it upon themselves to interpret the rule.

How many times do you shoot 3 gun a year?

Say I come off a pistol stage. The next stage involves pistol and shotgun. What would I have to do?

1. Drive to the next stage.

2. Go to the trunk. Take off the magazines from the holders and leave it in the trunk. Get shell holders from trunk.

3. Go to the safety area. Unholster the gun. Take off the belt. Reconfigure it for the stage. Put the belt back on. Reholster the pistol.

4. Go back to the car. Get the loaded magazines. Charge the holders with shells.

5. Go shoot.

VS.

1. Drive to the next stage.

2. Go to the trunk and unbelt. Put the shotgun shell carriers carriers on the belt. Strap on the reconfigured belt. Load the carriers.

3. Go shoot.

Next time you shoot 3 gun at a non-USPSA match... compare the two.

Interesting sequence. How about:

1. Go to safety area. Bag your handgun.

2. . . . hey, that's IT. You can do ANYTHING to your belt now.

If your range layout makes your access to safety areas inconvenient, try working to change your range layout -- all your fellow shooters will benefit from your efforts.

As far as the rationale of the rules (no, I don't believe a handgun in a holster is bagged, even if there is a belt attached) I think the rule is fine, and applicable to everyone. Even to those who are too savvy to ever have an accident happen to them.

25 years in the USN, I read a lot of accident reports, helped investigate a few myself.

Some of the worst accidents I saw came about when a "never happen" event met a "can't happen to me" sailor.

Maybe 5.2 errs on the side of safety. No offense, I think you're a fine person, but I'd rather err on the side of safety than on the side of your convenience.

[Religious Shooter]

Interesting sequence. How about:

1. Go to safety area. Bag your handgun.

2. . . . hey, that's IT. You can do ANYTHING to your belt now.

Are you being sarcastic? Or are you not understanding the steps?

In case you aren't being sarcastic. After your steps the likely steps after are:

1. ...

2. Go to the trunk of the car. Take off the magazines with holders (as you can't handle ammo in the safety area). Reconfigure the belt. Put belt back on. Charge holders.

3. Go back to the safety area. Reholster gun.

4. Go back to the car and drive to the next stage.

5. Shoot.

vs.

1. Go to the car and drive to the next stage.

2. Go to the trunk. Reconfigure belt (unbelt). Charge holders.

3. Shoot.

My "convenience" = increased speed in the administration of the match.

I don't know why you guys aren't answering my question of how we can unbag/bag our long guns at the car and yet somehow it is unsafe in what I want to do (unbelt and change holders and rebelt).

[JThompson]

:popcorn1:

[Nik Habicht]

I don't know why you guys aren't answering my question of how we can unbag/bag our long guns at the car and yet somehow it is unsafe in what I want to do (unbelt and change holders and rebelt).

Huh? Who unbags long guns at a car? That's what safety areas are for --- see Rifle or Shotgun Rule 2.4. See also Section 5.2, which specifically discusses how a competitor may handle his rifle or shotgun when not under the supervision of an RO. This may be inconvenient --- but it's really not hard to comply with.

Since you asked --- sorry for the delay, I spent most of yesterday at a match --- I remove cased long guns (with the actions open and flagged) in my cart still in their cases. Long guns get unbagged either in a safety area or under the direction of an RO at the start of a stage. After I'm done shooting they are placed in the safety area, I retrieve the cases and my cart, if it's not already in the vicinity, and case them there. Then they go back into the cart. I can now step out, dump my mags in the cart, grab a pistol rug to bag my handgun or alternatively set it on the safe table for a minute, while I reconfigure my gear. Step back in to grab the gun and I'm done and ready to walk to the next stage. It all happens much faster than than I'm describing it here.....

And oh, yeah --- waving long guns around in the parking lot, removing them form cars and placing them on carts, or the reverse, while sweeping people in the vicinity --- that's a surefire way to get yourself disqualified from the match.....

Now --- if it's not a USPSA Rifle, Shotgun, 3gun or Multigun match, then whatever rules that match sets apply. The above only applies to USPSA events....

[Chuck Anderson]

I've been to some three gun matches that specifically have an exemption for casing long guns at the car for guys that have truck vaults or huge cases or whatever. It is specifically stated in the match booklet that it is allowed. In that case I would consider RS's pistol argument. Otherwise, you made a long drive to go home from the match early. It's clearly stated in the rules. If you don't like the rule, email Amidon and ask his opinion. He's quick to get back and this back and forth on a forum between guys that have clearly held opinions is pretty worthless. I just emailed Amidon with the question and Gordon's video. I'll let you knwo what he says. (My money is on no.)

Edited April 28, 2008 by Lawman

[wgnoyes]

It says "carry". What's your definition of "carry"?

I'm I carrying the gun in the video?

And what does it mean by "storage?"

As far as I can tell I am neither storing or carrying the gun. All I am going to do is unbelting and putting or taking off ammunition carriers.

And what's your definition of "is"?

[Nik Habicht]

this back and forth on a forum between guys that have clearly held opinions is pretty worthless.

Really? Your opinion has never been changed, even slightly, by what has been a pretty polite discussion? RS hasn't made an argument yet that causes me to change my mind, but it could happen with his next sentence. If nothing else, it could spark discussion of amending the rules, to reach some sort of compromise that addresses both the safety concerns and the convenience/pain in the rear factor of reconfiguring gear between stages...

I don't engage in these debates because I find arguing to be fun --- I do it to make sure that there's nothing new that I need to consider, to make sure that I'm not missing something, to learn.....

[Chuck Anderson]

Have him review rules 5.2.1 and 10.5.1

John

The above is Amidon's response. I sent him a request for a bit more info. Yes my opinion has been changed, but on something where there is already clear guidance in the rule book I don't see a lot of reason to flog it. There's a real simple way to get an answer on that. If you don't like my opinion feel free to ignore it.

Got second email from Amidon. He's going to address the issue in his next column in Front Sight.

Edited April 29, 2008 by Lawman

[Glen]

Here's the steps RS should be using ...

1) Un-ammo just outside the safe area. You have the whole

range except the safe areas to do this. Not just your car.

2) Re-configure your equipment in the safe area, including reholstering.

3) Step outside the safe area and re-ammo.

4) Go to the next stage.

Glen

[Punkin Chunker]

Are you being sarcastic? Or are you not understanding the steps?

Who ME? Sarcastic?

Welllllll -- maybe, just a little.

It's hard to resist when someone asks what "carry" and "storage" mean.

Next up: What the definition of the word "is" is.

1. ...

2. Go to the trunk of the car. Take off the magazines with holders (as you can't handle ammo in the safety area). Reconfigure the belt. Put belt back on. Charge holders.

3. Go back to the safety area. Reholster gun.

4. Go back to the car and drive to the next stage.

5. Shoot.

vs.

1. Go to the car and drive to the next stage.

2. Go to the trunk. Reconfigure belt (unbelt). Charge holders.

3. Shoot.

Actually, the superlong #2 you propose to discredit the safety area approach is the same as the short one you use to support your own, with the exception that you have complied with the rules in the first, and rationalize not complying in the second. And you don't have to take the ammo off your belt before going to the safety area -- you can't HANDLE ammo in the safety area:

10.5.12:

The word “handling” does not preclude competitors from entering a Safety Area with ammunition in magazines or speed loading devices on

their belt, in their pockets or in their range bag, provided the competitor does not physically remove the loaded magazines or loaded speed

loading devices from their retaining or storage device while within the Safety Area.

If getting to a safety area is just too darned slow, most ROs will help you with bagging your handgun at the end of the stage. Many will even carry your gun rug for you (ROs are just too doggone nice that way). Then you walk straight to your car.

I don't know why you guys aren't answering my question of how we can unbag/bag our long guns at the car and yet somehow it is unsafe in what I want to do (unbelt and change holders and rebelt).

I don't see that bagging and unbagging long guns at the car is safe. I don't shoot 3G/MG, so I'll take your word for it, that it is a common occurrence.

Try walking around a skeet or trap range one day. The general idea is that a long gun with an open action is generally pretty safe. On the other hand, even unloaded pistols are carried with the action closed, and little to distinguish a loaded weapon from one that is unloaded.

So yeah, I can see a different approach to long guns. Agree with it? Not really.

My "convenience" = increased speed in the administration of the match.

I'd sure hate to see someone bleed for faster administration of the match.

[racerba]

That Amidon ruling was 18+ years ago.

OK - some other rules were written for longer than that - should we ignor those rules also?

Let's say I kneel down next to my gun bag outside a safe area and not under an RO supervision. I unholster my gun and move it 2 inches into my bag. This action is also NOT unsafe - similar to your not unsafe example video. Since my action was not unsafe, I should not be DQ for it, correct? Who cares what the rules say about handling a gun outside of a safe area or under RO supervision.

So why would you DQ somebody for breaking a 180, yet was not unsafe, but you want a free pass to break another rule?

[mactiger]

So pretend the ironing board is my trunk... you would DQ me for this???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvlzEpHQ6mk

Yes.

See 5.2.1 and 10.5.1. A holster securely attached to a belt on your person does not mean in your hands--it means worn on your person. Nor is your trunk a safe area.

So, while in your opinion it may be perfectly safe to do what you demonstrate in your video, it's against USPSA rules, and is a match disqualification for unsafe gun handling.

Troy

(One of those dudes that teach those classes.)

Edited April 29, 2008 by mactiger

[cking]

For three gun, I like a chamber flag for all weapons, rifle, pistol, shotguns. Carried either muzzle up or down. I don't like cases because I can't see that the weapon is unloaded. Plus I know people are always fiddling with their triggers and I'm not sure that dropping one is case won't set it off. I don't like chambers open because there could be round in tube drop it and again you could have problems.

In fact I like idea of moving toward chamber flags all the time. That way from the trunk to safe table is safe!

[Chuck Anderson]

I'm pretty sure a chamber flag in a pistol is against the rules (slide forward hammer down), as well as really impractical. I personally hate chamber flags in long guns. I see more horrible gun handling with flagged guns than anything else. I also don't like shoving melting plastic into the hot chamber of my rifle or shotgun. Especially when I have to clean out little plastic shavings.

[Religious Shooter]

Man... whatever. I also contacted Amidon and he concurs that if I did that at a match I would get a DQ. But he OK'd some other methods that was doable for me.

So whatever!!!! I don't agree with the rule... but I will comply.

(Amidon's response in bold).

Mr. Amidon,

I want to be able to change out my ammunition carriers while having a holstered gun. Can you please review these videos and tell me if they can be used under USPSA rules? These change outs will be done while not in the Safe Area or under the supervision of the RO --- basically at the trunk of a car. This is for 3 Gun and Multigun matches.

Thanks.

1. Unclasped Belt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt1umhmxSqU

I see no problem with this one.

Belt is unclasped and the carriers are changed out. The outer belt is securely attached to the inner belt via belt keepers to the fore and aft of the holster. The belt is not completely taken off.

2. Clasped Belt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXSXi3O9e8w

Belt remains clasped and the carriers are changed out.

I see no problem with this one either.

3. Taking Off the Belt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ9-VXSouMI

Belt is removed from the waist and the carriers are changed out. (Video camera looses power.) The belt is then put back on the waist.

This one is a no go. Multi gun rule

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Regarding the question of bagging / unbagging long guns - this is what I saw in the parking lot of the 2007 3-Gun Nationals on both Saturday and Sunday morning.

1. I didn't see anyone go to a safe area to unbag their long-gun to place them in a cart / buggy - doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that I didn't see anyone doing that.

2. Almost everyone around me (probably 9 out of 10 shooters) in the parking lot unbagged and placed their long-guns into their carts / buggies without going to a safe area.

Again - these are just my observations. FWIW, I unbagged and loaded my long guns into my 3-Gun cart in the parking lot both mornings.

[Chris]

OK so to mix this up even more , what if I do this??

Go to the safe area with my range bag while wearing my unloaded, holstered gun.

At the safe area, remove my belt which has the holster attached and a unloaded gun in the holster.

Shove the whole thing in the range bag.

Shove the range bag in the trunk of the car.

???