Nik Habicht Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 At a near-future sectional match, there's a standards stage that appears to require the shooter to engage six targets strong hand only, perform a mandatory reload, and re-engage the same targets strong hand only. The second string is the same, except the distance is halved, and weak hand only is stipulated. How does one reload onehanded? I suppose strong hand, I'd drop the mag, reholster, do an administrative type reload, draw and re-engage. Weakhand I haven't quite figured out yet ---- gun behind the knee or in the armpit are both doable without breaking the 180 ---- but I might drop the gun..... There's a small chance that it's a badly worded stage description --- and the first six rounds are freestyle.... God I hope so! The shootin' doesn't scare me; the reloadin's another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Why can't you use both hands to reload and still engage the targets as described? You're still firing the gun with one hand... SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 4, 2003 Author Share Posted June 4, 2003 U.S. 10.1.4.9 forbids the use of the other hand to reload UNLESS that reload is part of clearing a malfuntion. That same rule also prevents you from using the other hand to support the wrist or arm, or from using it to stabilize your position by hanging onto a wall or prop, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMD Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 There is a safe way to make the reload. Consider using the weak hand index finger – as a righty shooting weak/left – to engage the mag release and simply reach over and grab your mag with the right hand and insert. Practice a bit and the intimidation factor is gone. Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 In the early days we dropped the magazine, then turned the gun over (upside down), keeping the muzzle pointed downrange. We then clamped it between our knees, upside down and muzzle downrange, then got the magazine and seated it, then resumed grip on the gun and got back to shooting. This kept the muzzle downrange. Just be certain you don't slam the magazine in hard enough to overcome your clamp with your knees. We were in a somewhat semi-squatting or half kneeling position to keep the gun muzzle downrange. The knees were bent at somewhat less than 90º. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Of the four ways I know how to do a single hand reload, the "behind the knee" is definitely the safest, and it's quite fast if you practice. There's no chance of losing your gun or breaking 90 degrees provided you actually squat on the gun while it's behind your knee. Of course it's virtually impossible to use your holster when using your weak hand, and the "armpit" and "upside down, in front of knees" techniques are not nearly as stable as the "behind the knee" technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 hi all, they had stage like this at the 2003 Alabama Championship. The stage was called "Weak Steel". the procedure was one string, 3 paper targets 6 steel. engage freestyle 2 on each paper, engage 2 steel, mandatory reload, again engage freestyle 2 on each paper, engage 2 steel, mandatory reload, then engage the weakhand only, engage 2 on each paper, engage 2 steel. when i noticed several people ran dry on the weakhand part switched back to the stronghand to reloaded to finish the course of fire, i mentioned to the RO's there should be a procedural. two different RO's said it was okay because it was a using both hands to clear a jam or reload. i said "oooookay" and moved along. i know i should have pressed the issue, but just think of all the reshoots or throughing the stage out. this was a fun match and i didn't want to stir the stink. lynn jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 And to make things even more interesting: How do you reload a revolver with one hand without breaking the 180? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Hey, Vince - I'm old and feeble minded. I'm not quite envisioning the behind the knees weak hand reload. How is it accompliushed? Is this simply turning sideways, gun hand side downrange, squatting with the gun muzzle downrange and the grip pointing to the rear (lateral to the 180º)? Of course, old ,fat guys like me hate to squat. Getting up again is not pretty. What is the fourth technique? Wouldn't the armpit technique be invalid if the reason the strong hand could not be used was that the entire strong arm was incapacitated? I would also expect some care needs be exercised to avoid sweeping when placing the gun in the armpit. Thanks. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 I would think that some how you could get your first mag in the holder upsidedown then that would make it pretty quick if you could just push the gun down on the mag. I think I have seen it some where. I would also say a empty gun is a malfuntion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 If a course of fire stipulates strong or weak hand only Stipulates it how? Target engagement? Opening a door? Picking your nose? If string 2 stipulates weak hand, and I do a two-handed reload in string 1, you're supposed to penalize me? There are a bunch of USPSA classifiers that conflict with this rule. We do two-handed reloads all the time without penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Nik, I'm with Erik, unless the stage states the "reload only using your strong/weak hand" then use both. From the description you gave that would be perfectly legal. When you are reloading you are not engaging targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 I'm with the guys who say it's legal to reload with two hands in a strong or weak hand only stage. But just FYI, I've never been much of a fan of the "bent knee" technique. It requires you to go to kneeling which seriously limits your mobility, and though it can work okay if you're wearing long pants, if you're wearing shorts then pressing a hot barrel hood (if the slide is forward) or barrel (if you're reloading from slidelock) into the back of your knee is not something you want to experience. I've been taught, when doing a strong hand only reload, to pop the mag out, then simply insert the gun back into the holster. It's been pointed out that holsters tend to make pretty good gun holders, so, since you have a handy - and currently empty - gun holder strapped to your body, why not use it to hold your gun? Reach around, grab the spare mag, insert into the mag well, seat firmly, draw gun, hit slide release, continue shooting. This is much faster to do than describe, allows you to stay on your feet, and won't scorch any sensitive portions of your anatomy. For a weak hand reload - being VERY careful of the 180 - insert the gun into the holster backward, with the butt forward, and proceed as for the previous technique. Obviously this won't work with a race rig - it's a street rig only technique, and frankly it works better in a leather holster than Kydex - though it can work even then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Plain and simple, if a string, course of fire or whatever stipulates weak/strong hand ONLY, then you CANNOT use your other hand to reload if you run out of ammo. You can, however, reload if it's part of "clearing a malfunction". I just recently learned that this rule exsisted and have come to realize that 80% of shooters don't know about it either. Everyone read US 10.1.4.9 and 1.1.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 So do the reload with both hands, and eat the 10 points. Don't forget to include the "Disaster Factor" when you calculate possible hit factors. US 10.1.4.9 ...will be issued one procedural for each...Faults by using the other arm or hand to reload, unless the reload is part of clearing a malfunction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 I looked around the rule book for malfunctions and could find anything that said an empty gun was not a malfunction. I guess you could say it is simply a failure to feed hince malfunction. So you can use two hands. I also tried and with a standard pad on a STI mag and 771 mag holders you can make the mag stand with rounds up and do a reload that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 4, 2003 Author Share Posted June 4, 2003 I think Rich hit the nail on the head. Strong hand I'll reload administratively from the (Blade-Tech dropped and offset) holster; weak hand I'll eat the ten points and use the right hand to do the reload. Disaster factor ----- what's the only thing more important than hit factor on a stage.... Thanks for bringing that one up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Jon: An empty gun is not a malfunction, by any stretch of the imagination. The gun has performed as intended by using up all the ammo in the magazine and it can't be a failure to feed when there's nothing to feed! Guy: The "behind the knee" technique is to eject the mag in the gun, then as you're squatting you place your gun with the muzzle pointed downrange with the butt pointed away from your body. The trick is to safely pin the gun by squatting on it while it's behind your knee. This way you can really slam the new mag home with no chance of the muzzle moving. Once inserted, just grip your gun, stand up and start shooting again. I haven't needed to do this for a while, but if I recall correctly, it only takes 2-3 seconds all up, and it's by far the safest method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 know your hit factors on that stage (probably low because it's one handed). Then do the calculation whether it's worth or not to *eat* the procedural. It probably is. A weak handed reload like described by Guy (knee clamp) or Duane (reholster, I've never seen or heard of Vince's technique) easily costs 5 extra sec. I'd imagine that even for low HFs, eating the proc would almost always be the solution. --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyaboutguns Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Has anyone asked themself, what is the reason for designing a stage that requires a form of reloading which is inherently subject to dropped guns, muzzles moving in unpredictable directions if not gripped correctly, whatever correctly is, by the knees, etc.? Ladies and gentlemen, IPSC is a sport contested by adolescents not of legal age to own a handgun, adults of varying abilities, physical infirmities and experience/inexperience with handguns in general, and IPSC in particular. Because a stage can be designed in such a way that is within the rules of IPSC/USPSA, etc. does not mean such a stage is safe, or responsibly designed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GvU Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Has any one thought of chapter 2 2.1.1 Physical Construction – Safety considerations in the design, physical construction, and stated requirements for any course of fire are the responsibility of the host organization subject to the approval of the Range Master. Reasonable effort must be made to prevent injury to competitors, officials or spectators during the competition. Course design should prevent inadvertent unsafe actions wherever possible. Consideration must be given to the operation of any course of fire to provide suitable access for officials supervising the competitors. 2.1.4 Impractical Behavior – When a course is constructed to include target positions other than immediately downrange, organizers and officials must protect or restrict surrounding areas to which officials, spectators or competitors have access. Each competitor must be allowed to solve the competitive problem in their own way and must not be hindered by being forced to act in any manner which might cause unsafe action. Targets shall be arranged so that shooting at them on an “as and when visible” basis will not cause competitors to breach safe angles of fire. Competitors shall never be required to re-holster a handgun during the course of fire. A course of fire shall not require the competitor to draw the handgun with the weak hand. (no one said it should be done) Maybe it's fun to present such a problem to the competitors, but is it worth the extra risks? Lets face it procedurals and DQ's should be prevented by addressing this when designing the stage. I think getting a procedural and go for the two handed reload is the way to a better hitfactor. This then makes a mandatory stronghand only or weakhand only reload futile. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 13, 2003 Author Share Posted June 13, 2003 I'm told by friends (with way more experience) that I'm misreading the stage instructions. These same friends also tell that such a stage is illegal --- but I'm not convinced on that score. I'll hope they're right ---- but I know how to solve the problem, if my reading of the description turns out to be correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old shooter Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 In the "older" days, it was quite common to have to make a reload with the weak hand only. The way Guy describes it is how it was done then, and so far, I haven't seen a faster way if you must make a one handed, weak hand reload. I remember Buck Toddy making a one hand reload on the last part of the Cooper Assault (actually Guy was there) but he had some kind of flip that would have surely disqualified him by todays rules. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Hi, Mike!! I don't recall Buck having done a weak hand reload. The instance I recall was a weak hand clearing of a smokestack. He kept the muzzle pointed downrange, tossing the gun up to catch it with his hand over the slide and thumb under the grip safety. After wiping the smokestaqk with the one hand, he then again tossed the gun up and re-acquired his shooting grip. He made it look easy, but it is obviously something that could easily see the gun on the ground. It was impressive, though. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old shooter Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Guy, You are so right. I guess that I was having a senior moment. However, didn't he also press the recoil spring section of his gun against the barracade to load up, something that couldn't be done if you had a recoil spring guide? Anyway, you are right , it looked easy... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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