IDPA rules question

[tightloop]

Deleted by moderator.

[boo radley]

I think the rules say: "Shoot all you want, but don't shoot an extra shot(s) only for the purpose of gaining an advantage on the reload." But then, I'm also paraphrasing.

I understand the rule and I understand why it's unenforceable, but it is what it is.

Good course design makes it much of a moot point. And -- programming an unnecessary shot is also a distraction and can back-fire badly, and at minimum it will always cost a split.

[Joe D]

Hmmmmmm, Vickers count says I can put as many rounds into a target as I choose.

[scirocco38s]

At the most recent IDPA match I guess you could say that I gamed a stage. COF had you engage 5 targets and then open a door and engage 4 more with a swinger. What I did was shoot the 5 targets and dumped the last round in the last target so I could do a reload before I got to the door. One guy told me that gaming like that was illegal in IDPA and I should have gotten a penalty. I told him "isn't what we are doing a game?". Question is who's to say that I thought that I had a miss on the last target and made it up? Not trying to bust any chops here but is it a real rule?

Chris C.

Its a hard rule to call and most hard line idpa folks will not like it especially if they recognize that you dumped the round. On the other hand that is one of the rules that made me quit shooting it regularly, and the inconsistancy it was applied. Now I hardly ever shoot it and when I do I pickup 2 or 3 procedurals because I have forgotten the nuances of the game. As such I now go and shoot just to be with a couple of friends and to torque off some of the hardliners that are looking for me to game a stage. They make it hard now as just about every stage is 12 rounds. In 1998 I shot 3 matches /month of idpa, now it is 3/yr.

I personally applaude your use of the rule to gain an advantage. Games are about figuring a problem out faster or better. Not everyone analyzes the same and when you find a quicker way, the others should give you the praise of thinking outside of the normal thought process.

[Chris Conley]

At the most recent IDPA match I guess you could say that I gamed a stage. COF had you engage 5 targets and then open a door and engage 4 more with a swinger. What I did was shoot the 5 targets and dumped the last round in the last target so I could do a reload before I got to the door. One guy told me that gaming like that was illegal in IDPA and I should have gotten a penalty. I told him "isn't what we are doing a game?". Question is who's to say that I thought that I had a miss on the last target and made it up? Not trying to bust any chops here but is it a real rule?

Chris C.

Its a hard rule to call and most hard line idpa folks will not like it especially if they recognize that you dumped the round. On the other hand that is one of the rules that made me quit shooting it regularly, and the inconsistancy it was applied. Now I hardly ever shoot it and when I do I pickup 2 or 3 procedurals because I have forgotten the nuances of the game. As such I now go and shoot just to be with a couple of friends and to torque off some of the hardliners that are looking for me to game a stage. They make it hard now as just about every stage is 12 rounds. In 1998 I shot 3 matches /month of idpa, now it is 3/yr.

I personally applaude your use of the rule to gain an advantage. Games are about figuring a problem out faster or better. Not everyone analyzes the same and when you find a quicker way, the others should give you the praise of thinking outside of the normal thought process.

That's about the only reason that I shoot IDPA. There are a couple of multigun buddies that shoot it and I like hanging out with them for a day. I don't know if I'll go back and shoot IDPA anymore. Just too much conflict. That's a damn shame I really enjoyed it at first.

Chris C.

Edited April 8, 2008 by Chris Conley

[scirocco38s]

Yeah, I started there also. At first it was great, but as time has passed, I have found that ipsc is the game I like and will concentrate on.

[HoMiE]

That's about the only reason that I shoot IDPA. There are a couple of multigun buddies that shoot it and I like hanging out with them for a day. I don't know if I'll go back and shoot IDPA anymore. Just too much conflict. That's a damn shame I really enjoyed it at first.

Chris C.

I had similar experience when I started shooting IDPA. But I kept going back just to shoot and have a good time. The people who think your a "gamer" ease up and your always going to run into 1 or 2 who aren't going to agree no matter how you shoot a stage. I have respect for the rules of all shooting sports wheter I agree with them or not. There is only conflict if you let there be conflict. It really is a silly reason to not enjoy something you like and have a quality time with your friends.

[RickB]

Where do you guys shoot, that you find all this inconsistency, conflict, and gray areas? Even within a given club, the match staff are not all on the same page, as to rules and definitions? I only (mostly) shoot my own club's matches, but the staff presents a united front, for everyone's benefit, with an expectation that the rules are enforced equitably, and when they're not, it's the SO who gets the guff, not the shooter.

I'm a SO Instructor, and agree that it is all but impossible to recognize round dumping, and make that clear in the SO class. A good reason to not call round dumping, is that it's almost impossible to get an advantage from it. There was an attempt already in this thread to do the math, but anything beyond one "extra" shot is probably going to be counterproductive.

[Chills1994]

RickB wrote:

There was an attempt already in this thread to do the math, but anything beyond one "extra" shot is probably going to be counterproductive.

That depends... maybe a shooter already knows how long it takes to do a slide lock reload (SLR) vs. a RWR....

But then again, if you know the times already, you could practice your RWR's . I had PM'ed some Master classed shooters and the SLR times and RWR times they reported back weren't all that different.

Me?

All my reloads suck equally as bad, regardless of type.

LOL!

[boo radley]

Hmmmmmm, Vickers count says I can put as many rounds into a target as I choose.

No doubt the rule book should have been written differently (maybe *very* differently), and the clause about round-dumping included in the definition of Vickers Count.

But it's either disingenuous, or simple, to fail to associate the two, only because they're separated by a number of pages.

[Chills1994]

(thinking out loud mode on)

Sometimes I wonder if IDPA needs something like an NROI...

(mode off)

[cnote]

Yeah, I started there also. At first it was great, but as time has passed, I have found that ipsc is the game I like and will concentrate on.

Same for me, over time the IDPA "dictates" or rules have taken some of the fun out of it. It seems to me that they take a lot of the thinking out of it also. The majority of the local matches seem to be a bunch of robots (by division/magazine) shooting stages exactly the same way. Never been to a major match , just some state matches where the stages were a bit better.

Another turn off is the "soup Nazi's" as we call them based on the Seinfeld episode. No ____ for you, one year. It just seem I hear the word "no" a lot.

Still keep shooting them though. Support for the shooting sports is essential.

[RobMoore]

I think the number of times you hear "no" depends on the SOs. There have been times that I had to walk an SO exactly through how I wanted to shoot a stage, showing him how it was indeed legal, because he initially saw that I was doing it "different" and wanted to give me a procedural. Those types tend to be in the "Its training for real life, not a game" camp, and luckily those types are in the minority.

[Joe D]

I tend to design stages with more than one way to shoot them. That really blows some folks minds. I like a "risk and reward" design.

[Bones]

This "conflict" has no end in words.

Perhaps the way to foil all those "SO Nazi's" is to actually join IDPA (the initial poster noted he was not a member), take the SO class and then wrest control by staffing and running matches based on your interpretation of the apparently ambigious rules.

In this particular case, reading the initial poster's 3rd sentence and then "Conduct Rules, example D1" on page 15 of the rule book. Intent is clearly established. About the best he could do was invoke the 5th and claim protection from self-incrimination.

Craig

Edited April 8, 2008 by Bones

[CAB33]

Best place to dump a round is a miss on a steel if available.

Next best is throw a miss and then make it up on a target early in the array not the last one before the "Gaming" begins.

[buddy_fuentes]

IDPA is suppose to mimic a real gun fight, right? Well in a real gunfight you better cheat to win!

OK, I know it is a game like everything else we shoot from bullseye, USPSA, pins, steel and tin cans. I shoot IDPA when there is no other game to shoot and I have seen people count the rounds and and shoot the extra round before the last target. How can you tell that they did it? You can't........but you know they did. Watch the guys that go to slide lock at just the right place each time.

I'm one of the dumb ones that follow the rules in the game and shoot it the best I can. But there are those that deliberately sneak that extra shot in because it cannot be proved. Therefore, the rule should be eliminated to have everyone on an even playing field.

Buddy

[RickB]

(thinking out loud mode on)

Sometimes I wonder if IDPA needs something like an NROI...

(mode off)

IDPA has something like NROI, but it's not a "separate" organization. There is a standardized SO course syllabus (approx. eleven hours of instruction), certified instructors, and a requirement that all affiliated clubs have at least one certified SO (trained by a certified instructor).

[Duane Thomas]

IDPA is suppose to mimic a real gun fight, right? Well in a real gunfight you better cheat to win!

But hey, if you are'nt cheating, you are'nt trying hard enough.

I have heard this many times in the attempt to justify round dumping. However, "always cheat, always win" means that, in a real fight to the death, don't let a misguided sense of fair play make you give your opponent a chance to kill you. It does NOT mean it's okay to cheat at the match.

[warpspeed]

IDPA has some unique rules that are 180 degrees apart from USPSA. That's OK.

When I have shot IDPA in the past, I've gotten dinged for not using cover. Silly, but part of the rules.

I really did not care if I got dinged and if I had RD'ed and they said thats a no no, I'd have taken my 20 secs and moved on.

Try to shoot the sport within its own set of rules. If you cannot, then do not shoot that type of match.

[Slingshot]

Well said Bones and Warpspeed.

Learn the rules, play the game, be safe, and have fun. Our children's children will probably be hashing out differences in rules interpretation like this one, and I'm sure over time help drive some improvements. But the long and the short of it is that it's a game, there are rules, and folks bright enough to handle firearms can figure out what's right and what's not acceptable with the rules of that game ... or pick a different game to play.

[Greg Bell]

Here is a good scenario:

You are the SO at a sanctioned match and your stage is ripe for round dumping. After a couple shooters have shot you hear a group of shooters discussing where to dump an extra shot to get the slide lock reload before a drop turn target. What would you do with this?

I turned around and asked them not to discuss that within earshot of me as I didn't want to call a FTDR. They all then proceeded to have perfect slide lock reloads before the drop turn. It was pitiful but there really was no point in making the call as it would have been overturned by the MD.

[Chills1994]

slingshot wrote:

Our children's children will probably be hashing out differences in rules interpretation like this one, and I'm sure over time help drive some improvements

[nonpolitical]

In the bigger scheme of things, I can only hope our children's children still have the right to keep and bear arms to the point where they can discuss and argue over rule interpretations such as we're having right now.

[/nonpolitical]

[kdmoore]

Greg, you asked, so I'll answer. This is one of the few times I would have called RD'ing. Would have informed the shooter of what I heard and assessed the penalty. I might have prewarned the shooter that I would assess an FTDR if he shot it as I had heard him preplan. If overturned, well that's fine. Our MD's tend to stick by the SO's when within the rules. IMHO, once you've heard it, you shouldn't ignore it. Again, this is one of the times when I'm sure enough to make that call.

Joe D. I'm with boo on assessment of your "rationale". The rule book defines Vickers count as "as many shots as desired may be fired, but only the best hits as specified by the course description will be scored. "

But there are always rules in all sports that "interact" with one another. For instance, in IDPA you can't fire more than 31 rounds, even if you "desire" to.

I guess my point we are aware that the "outlawing" of RD'ing by IDPA is a well known exception of "as many shots as desired". Most IDPA centric folks I know don't have a problem with the idea of penalizing folks for shooting for the purpose of timing a slidelock reload. But they all realize that it is difficult/impossible to administer it fairly/consistently.

Maybe in the future major matches will have "the box", a chronograph, a scale and a polygraph.

I don't think I stated my gripe very well earlier. What I didn't like is that:

a. it encouraged RD'ing. Move one target before or after the doorway if possible, or change the rounds required (IMO).

b. it favored a particular type of ESP guns over other ESP guns.

Not the end of the sport by anymeans, just not optimal. I'd change that term if I found out the MD had a 9mm 1911 ....

Edited April 9, 2008 by kdmoore

[buddy_fuentes]

Duane Thomas, read my whole post and I think you will intrepid that I do not condone cheating. As a matter of fact I think intergerity is the most important statement of our character.

The first part of my post was a jab at IDPA guys that state it is a martial art and not a game.

Buddy