USPSA SG Rules - Buckshot rule change

[Neil Beverley]

I'm not sure how many of you may have spotted that the USPSA SG, rifle and 3-gun rules have all been revised very recently (2nd set of rules for 2008).

One significant change is that you can no longer select buckshot to be shot against paper targets.

If this is something you want to do/try then you still have an option to run an IPSC Shotgun match in the US, which allows (even encourages) this as an alternative option.

[Neil Smith]

Seems like a backward step to me !

I guess its to try & speed up the stage reset time & reduce the time required by potential competitors to sort out a good Buckshot & choke combination.

Im glad IPSC is about skill & not just hosing targets.

N

TYF-53506

[Neil Beverley]

Neil

In truth I don't think this was the issue.

After the first set of USPSA 2008 SG rules were released I had a quick look through and found some significant problems that needed fixing. It's a long story and there is no need to go into it here. However, I want to see stand alone shotgun matches develop wherever and whenever and so I emailed Mike Voigt and John Amidon with a list of the problems. Some of these were related to buckshot.

Disappointingly, The fix that has been chosen is to remove the option to shoot buckshot at paper targets. I wonder if this is to make the integration with 3-gun easier? The number of hits on paper no-shoots was one such issue. It does seem a little as if a sledgehammer has been used to crack the nut and of course it is a shame to lose the target option.

On a brighter note the IPSC style shotgun match put on by Trapr and Kurt, and discussed HERE, has been a great success and with more similar matches to follow. I also think the Level IV PanAmerican match will be a revelation.

As long as people are pulling a trigger then it can't be all bad.

[Neil Smith]

I also think the Level IV PanAmerican match will be a revelation.

Perhaps more so for some US shooters rather than the europeans !

Im looking forward to that match, roll on 2010 !

N

Edited March 25, 2008 by Neil Smith

[D.Hayden]

Neil, Where'd you find the new rule for this? I've haven't seen anything else but slugs at paper yet.. just wondering...

In the January 2008 Shotgun rules

All I see is this..

9.5.1 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, scoring paper

targets must be shot with a minimum of one round each, with the best

hit to score in the case of slug ammunition or with the best two hits to

score in the case of buckshot ammunition, i.e. the two highest scoring

strikes of any pellets from any buckshot rounds fired

Dave

[Neil Beverley]

Neil, Where'd you find the new rule for this? I've haven't seen anything else but slugs at paper yet.. just wondering...

In the January 2008 Shotgun rules

All I see is this..

9.5.1 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, scoring paper

targets must be shot with a minimum of one round each, with the best

hit to score in the case of slug ammunition or with the best two hits to

score in the case of buckshot ammunition, i.e. the two highest scoring

strikes of any pellets from any buckshot rounds fired

Dave

Dave

You're still looking at the first set of rules. If you check out the USPSA website you will fiind 4 sets of revisions. Basically a number of USPSA HG rules had been revised for 2008 and these revisions were then applied to the SG and rifle rules. Trouble was the the revised HG rules didn't always work for SG and Rifle (surprise, surprise). Add to this that the HG rules were brought up to date to take on board a great many of the IPSC 2006 HG revisions but the 2004 SG & R rules weren't updated to stay in line at the same time. This then created a number of anomolies. I haven't checked the latest set thoroughly but they're better than they were but unfortunately there have been some sacrifices on the way.

9.5.1 now reads:

9.5.1 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, scoring paper targets must be shot with a minimum of one round each, with the best hit to score. Metal targets must fall to score. Frangible targets must break with a visible piece missing or separated from the original target to be counted for score.

2.1.11 has been changed to read:

2.1.11 A competitor must never be required to shoot at paper targets using birdshot or buckshot ammunition.

A heap of other rules have been changed as well.

[D.Hayden]

Thanks much! I figured January 2008 would be current... lol

I was also looking at the NROI site.. they don't have the revisions there yet...

[Jim Norman]

Well that is one more reason that our 3-gun match will not likely run under pure USPSA rules. Then again, since its 3-gun (read this as Multi-gun, which is what multi-gun used to be called) it won't run under IPSC rules either.

Jim

[Religious Shooter]

I haven't been shooting as long as some folk. Maybe 8 years? 3 USPSA 3G/MG Nationals, 3 USPSA Area 3G/MG matches, 1 RM3G, 2 SMM3G and a ton of local matches. A mixture of USPSA and IMGA matches. And in all those mathces I have never shot a paper target with buckshot.

I'm not really seeing the point as I have never experienced it. And I'm sure a good chunk of the US shooter's haven't either.

What kind of target arrays or scenarios would you require the shooter use buckshot on paper? What exactly are we giving up (other than a whole lot of taping)?

I would venture that buckshot on paper is rather foreign to the average American shooter.

[AikiDale]

2.1.11 A competitor must never be required to shoot at paper targets using birdshot or buckshot ammunition.

But a competitor may use shot if he so chooses? Not being required to use shot would not seem to preclude its use.

[Brian Payne]

I have been to a couple of Shotgun only matches that had stages where you used buckshot to engage paper targets with a white no-shoot in front of it. Tended to teach you about patterning your shotgun using buckshot at different distances. I thought it was a lot of fun and since it didn't happen on many stages per year the taping wasn't that much of a problem.

[BillL223]

I've shot a 3-gun match where you used buckshot on IPSC paper targets at 25 -35 yards and best 4 hits counted. I thought it was fun, made me go pattern buckshot with various chokes to see what I needed to get 4 A hits.

[Jim Norman]

I've shot a 3-gun match where you used buckshot on IPSC paper targets at 25 -35 yards and best 4 hits counted. I thought it was fun, made me go pattern buckshot with various chokes to see what I needed to get 4 A hits.

I agree with Bill.

One thing that we need to do is count all the NS hits. You have a choice of 9 or 12 pellet as far as I am concerned, put up a paper and a NS, require 4 hits on the shoot, count the best two and count ALL the hits on the N/S.

Jim

[Neil Smith]

I have been to a couple of Shotgun only matches that had stages where you used buckshot to engage paper targets with a white no-shoot in front of it. Tended to teach you about patterning your shotgun using buckshot at different distances.

This is the idea behind Buckshot on paper, it forces you to learn your gun/choke/load combination so you know what you can & cannot do, also using steel no shoots in close proximity & sometimes overlapping the edges of the shoot targets is common practice in IPSC shotgun matches in europe for both buckshot & birdshot, people learn what they can get away with & how fast they dare go, its not all about hosing targets that are way out in the open & are easy shots, they are fun to shoot but not much of a challenge.

IPSC shotgun match organisers usually stipulate 9 ball buck only & count the two highest scoring hits on any target & also only score a maximum of only two hits on any no shoot.

N

Edited March 29, 2008 by Neil Smith

[sslav]

Well that is one more reason that our 3-gun match will not likely run under pure USPSA rules. Then again, since its 3-gun (read this as Multi-gun, which is what multi-gun used to be called) it won't run under IPSC rules either.

Jim

Jim, Is that really all that big of a deal? I am a relative novice to the sport, but I've been to a number of shotgun and 3-gun matches and none of them required buckshot on paper - our matches included. Does not seem like that was a popular option to begin with. You can generate tight shots using birdshot on steel and/or frangible targets and steel no-shoots or cover.

Slav

[kurtm]

Yes Neil,s ( and I do mean both of you!), 2010 will be a VERY eye opening year for American shooters at the Pan-Am shotgun shoot. Most U.S. shooters just don't care to know about the international side of shotgun only matches and it will be a very rude awakening to them. You see since they have never shot buckshot at paper, then well it is no big deal, except when they have to and will be a bit clueless, but hey it is the American way. I never cease to be amused by the "World Championship" mentality we seem to have. Whether it be "Football" ( the oval kind ) or Baseball, since we hold the world championship and NO ONE else is invited we must be the best! Trapr and I were very easy on the folks at the High Plains Shotgun Championships this year to ease the U.S. shooters into IPSC style shotgun shooting, and you should have heared the shooters saying "you can't do that with a shotgun". Next year it will be much more in line with IPSC as found in Europe, so they can expect Buckshot targets out to 45 yards, OVERLAPPING No SHOOT targets ( not the friendly just close ones seen this year) and MUCH tougher slug targets. I hope the U.S. get,s up to speed on this or it will be very embarassing! KURTM

[GentlemanJim]

Kurt

How many USA 3 gunners will go to europe and shoot IPSC shotgun matches?

I dont keep up with overseas matches...and am curious .

Jim

[Jim Norman]

A couple of points I'd like to make.

Does it matter how many US shooters go to Europe, or visa versa? What we are talking about is the ability to accurately shoot certain target presentations. We have apparently allowed ourselves to slip in respect to shotgun being though of as a tight shot firearm.

True enough we don't shoot a lot of buckshot on paper here. We have done it. I think that it is a very valid target presentation. Our method had been to count the best two hits, require four and penalize all NS hits.

Personally, I doubt I will make the 2010 shotgun match. I'd like to, but there are limits to my time. If there are people in our area that are going and they happen to shoot at our matches, they are welcome to send us a stage or two that will be representative of the type that might be found at the 2010. I don't think I'd have a big problem incorporating it into one of our matches.

Jim

[Carbon]

Well, I don't know the reasons behind USPSA's decision on this. But I just had a stage of all buckshot at my Spring Multi-gun match using six paper and 12 steel. We used the A-4 target which is a 8.5x11 piece of paper which you just replace for every shooter, no taping.

The stage ran very well, quick to reset and lot's of good comments. Thank you RO's.. Three of the paper were on swingers. I feel this is a proper use of buckshot, moving targets. It's also a lot easier to make a piece of paper move then a steel plate. Buckshot is also the only option for hunting in a lot of States. Why not test this skill of putting two pellets minimum on a moving target? As a stage designer it also allows putting some distance to the steel targets.

I can see the potential for abuse. I left the No-shoots out of the stage as the target presentation was hard enough already. But a overlapping no-shoot at 25 yards could be frustrating for a lot of shooters. But the fun part of a shotgun is all the potential uses, flying clay's, slug's, buckshot. I would hate to get to the point where a shotgun is just a slow to reload pistol.

Carl

[Neil Smith]

Well, I don't know the reasons behind USPSA's decision on this. But I just had a stage of all buckshot at my Spring Multi-gun match using six paper and 12 steel. We used the A-4 target which is a 8.5x11 piece of paper which you just replace for every shooter, no taping.

Three of the paper were on swingers. I feel this is a proper use of buckshot, moving targets. It's also a lot easier to make a piece of paper move then a steel plate. Why not test this skill of putting two pellets minimum on a moving target? As a stage designer it also allows putting some distance to the steel targets.

But a overlapping no-shoot at 25 yards could be frustrating for a lot of shooters. But the fun part of a shotgun is all the potential uses, flying clay's, slug's, buckshot. I would hate to get to the point where a shotgun is just a slow to reload pistol.

Carl

Carl

Your post is right on the money, it sums up fairly accurately what we do in the UK as Kurt,Trapr,Kelly & Pat can attest too, we use slug on the standard & smaller clays at considerable distance, in fact they did just this at the last Euro shotgun level IV in Kavala Greece in 06

Also buckshot on clays & the IPSC turtle target as well as the A4 paper targets which are popular at long range either moving or stationary, for birdshot it can be surprising just how tight you can set overlapping no-shoot steels against shoot targets, I have seen targets completely overlapped with only a couple of inches of the top of a shoot target visible behind the no-shoot, when you put your gun up all you see is bead & no target, you need to know your pattern size & pick an aiming point on the bank or ground beyond the target which alows you to aim off the correct amount Its something you need to practice before hand believe me !

Hosing is great fun and always popular but when you get to the tight stuff if your not prepared it can certainly bite you.

Cant wait for the 2010 match.

N

Edited April 14, 2008 by Neil Smith

[SV_shooter]

my only concern is the price of slugs. I too agree that shotguns used in this sport should be used to shoot "Shot". I am getting my 3 gun gear together, and even though I may be able to afford the gear. Ammo in 3 gun will kill me financially. especially slugs. buck and birdshot is relatively cheap to load/purchase. slugs on the other hand....

[Religious Shooter]

I think the cost factor is probably the driving reason why it is not being allowed.

Listening to the stages being described... I don't know if I want to spend the $$$ and the time for what you get.

I just spent $100+ for a 100 slugs (probably 3-5 months worth). If they allow the rule to allow requiring buckshot to engage paper with buckshot I would also have to keep stock on buckshot (on top of the slugs... rifle ammo... pistol ammo... shot... spreaders...) as well.

Which would mean I would to go to the entire process of trying different buckshot. Patterning my shotguns at different distances with different chokes. I would have to do this with my main Tactical shotgun and my main HM shotgun.

I don't know if it's worth it for what you guys are describing.

Shooting turners, swingers and movers with buck? What's wrong with doing what we have been doing and shooting said targets with slugs?

Shooting at targets with no shoots near... what's wrong with bird (steel no shots) and/or slugs on these challenges?

It's fine and dandy if you shoot IPSC. But I believe the great majority of USPSA shooters don't shoot IPSC.

[Nik Habicht]

I think the cost factor is probably the driving reason why it is not being allowed.

I suspect you're wrong --- I believe the change was prompted by the return to scoring all hits on a no-shoot.

Taking a quick look at Ammoman, it looks like Federal low recoil Buck is the same cost as slugs --- about $.80 per round if you buy 250 at a time. Here's the thing though --- at most 3-gun matches you'd see maybe 1 stage that needed buck, at a local shotgun only match you might see two stages out of nine that required some buckshot. It's not uncommon for those stages to require an ammo change in the middle, as you change from shooting paper with buck to steel and birds with birdshot. Typically ~ a box of buckshot and a box of slugs would get you through the match, along with 4-5 boxes of birdshot......

[Religious Shooter]

Taking a quick look at Ammoman, it looks like Federal low recoil Buck is the same cost as slugs --- about $.80 per round if you buy 250 at a time.

You seem to be saying that cost isn't an issue. Are you taking into account the other rounds? ...rifle? ...pistol? ...other shotgun?

Anyways $.80 a round is still kinda expensive. And you have to buy $200 worth to get that price. And there's a good chance you might need to have more than one brand/type of buckshot --- just like you don't just have one shot shell in the bag.

Here's the thing though --- at most 3-gun matches you'd see maybe 1 stage that needed buck, at a local shotgun only match you might see two stages out of nine that required some buckshot. It's not uncommon for those stages to require an ammo change in the middle, as you change from shooting paper with buck to steel and birds with birdshot. Typically ~ a box of buckshot and a box of slugs would get you through the match, along with 4-5 boxes of birdshot......

As I noted earlier in my experience I have never had to use buckshot on paper. I don't find tour statement that "at most 3-gun matches you'd see maybe 1 stage that needed buck" as being typical. 8+ years of 3 gunning out West and I have never been required by the stage instructions to use buck shot.

And you guys have nine stages at a club match?!??!?!?

Typical club match here in So Kal:

5-6 stages...

3-5 boxes of bird = $20-30.

1-4 boxes of slugs = $5-$20

80-100 rds of rifle = XM193($419/900= $.465)x80 or x100=$37.20-$46.50

40 rds pistol (reloads) = $5

~$70-$90 for ammo for one match. (+gas, +match fees, +equipment, +etc.)

Personally I try to shoot 2-3 matches per month and do a little live practice. To me $300+ per month in ammo alone isn't cheap.

And if you add buck shot? The cheapest buck may not 1) work your gun and 2) it may not pattern well enough for your needs. Typically you will probably need to buy multiple boxes of different buck to find what works for you. You need to find out what size shot is good for your needs. You will probably end up having to stock up on multiple buckshot shells with different shot sizes. Then you will need to take the time to shoot said shells at different ranges and the different chokes with your shotgun(s). Then how about some practice with the buck?

To me the extra $ and time involved outweighs what you get. I don't see much benefit.

I suspect you're wrong --- I believe the change was prompted by the return to scoring all hits on a no-shoot

You are probably right. But I don't see that having multiple penalties on a no-shoot as a good reason for not having the rule. I mean I can tag a NS with a pistol multiple times. Are you going to disallow NS with pistol?

To me the added cost for little gain is a better reason for not allowing the rule.

[SV_shooter]

As a newb (waiting for first local match) to multi gun, I was very excited as I own 3 MEC loaders, and figured that because we shoot rifles, what is the point of slugs? I used to load #8-9 for skeet.. no problem there.. buckshot havent loaded it yet, but always have a box on hand for defense pourposes. I can easily load my own buck rounds and find specific loads that work in my gun and play w my chokes and loads for various distances. Never loaded slugs, and I don't even know if I can on my machines as the crimp seems to be done before you seat the slug. Can you load your own slugs? I don't even know..but I can only imagine what just the slugs cost in volume, and to fire 2 at a paper target make me feel like billy the kid, only with the worst $1.80 I ever spent I would imagine buck shot would be more prominent as it is a defensive load, but if I have my rifle, and pistol, Shotguns should be shooting just that; shot. maybe its because I'm new that I dont quite get it. I understand the need for better scoring, I just don't see the point in spending as much money to shoot my shotgun like a rifle when a rifle is part of the game. someone, anyone.... please help me better understand. thank you for listening to my rant. more of a tirade of questions and logic.