Another Guide Rod Thread

[Catfish]

The FLGR makes it real hard to do the old fashioned tacticool press check with your finger under the barrel.....

That being said, in several hundred thousands of rounds through a few 1911s and a 2011, all with a FLGR, I've never seen one of mine break.....

I'll just bite my tounge for the rest of what I'd like to say.

[Huston in Austin]

I think Jim Clark Sr didn't like FLGRs, but every gunsmith I've used did like them.

[XRe]

\

I have heard of tungsten one-piece rods failing, but I don't recall ever seeing a standard steel one-piece rod fail. I'm sure it can happen, no doubt, but I think that's a pretty unlikely event.

Seen it. Never had it happen on one of mine.

I might have to argue that in some divisions we're not running full power carry ammo, while in others we are. I chronographed some of our duty .40 ammo the other day. 165gr bullet that averaged 1040fps. That compares pretty much to my standard .40 major load of a 180gr bullet at 950...nearly identical power factors.

Perhaps you ought to do the comparison between competition and duty .45 ammo - the caliber that's most likely to be seen where Mr. Smith spends most of his time. The standard .45 FMJ load isn't exactly hot relative to what .45 can handle, and its in the 205 PF range. Federal Hydra-Shok 230gr is 207 PF, nominally. CorBon 230gr +P makes 218 PF. CorBon 165gr +P makes 207 PF and carries 573 ft/lbs...

I can't imagine how often something like a FLGR is going to fail on carry guns that don't get shot that much.

Generally speaking, poor design or poor manufacture. Parts is not parts - and there have been poor designs in the past. At this point in time, it seems that the designs that have survived are pretty solid - but if your history includes a lot of broken ones, you're probably not likely to change your mind much when its (literally) life and death sort of stuff.

Dogmatic opinion or not, I'd rather not be judging the man or his opinions, especially without being able to find out where he's coming from on it...

[G-ManBart]

I might have to argue that in some divisions we're not running full power carry ammo, while in others we are. I chronographed some of our duty .40 ammo the other day. 165gr bullet that averaged 1040fps. That compares pretty much to my standard .40 major load of a 180gr bullet at 950...nearly identical power factors.

Perhaps you ought to do the comparison between competition and duty .45 ammo - the caliber that's most likely to be seen where Mr. Smith spends most of his time. The standard .45 FMJ load isn't exactly hot relative to what .45 can handle, and its in the 205 PF range. Federal Hydra-Shok 230gr is 207 PF, nominally. CorBon 230gr +P makes 218 PF. CorBon 165gr +P makes 207 PF and carries 573 ft/lbs...

I can't imagine how often something like a FLGR is going to fail on carry guns that don't get shot that much.

Generally speaking, poor design or poor manufacture. Parts is not parts - and there have been poor designs in the past. At this point in time, it seems that the designs that have survived are pretty solid - but if your history includes a lot of broken ones, you're probably not likely to change your mind much when its (literally) life and death sort of stuff.

Dogmatic opinion or not, I'd rather not be judging the man or his opinions, especially without being able to find out where he's coming from on it...

I think that comparing external ballistics is probably a poor comparison. The slide velocity is what matters most when you're talking about parts breaking. A typical Limited gun with 170ish PF ammo is probably running a recoil spring somewhere from 10-14lbs. A standard 1911 .45 recoil spring is more like 18lbs. I'd bet that the slide velocity is similar, if not greater on the Limited gun....especially if the slide has been lightened.

An Open gun with any major ammo is almost certainly going to have a higher slide velocity than a standard 1911 .45...that ought to be a lot harder on the recoil system, but we don't see many break...I've never seen one, but I do know it happens every once in a while.

I agree parts is not parts. If people are showing up with low quality parts and they're breaking I'd think the advice would be to use one from a reputable manufacturer with a history of making good parts rather than blame the style of part in question.

I'm certainly not judging Clint, and it sounds like he was talking more from an operational standpoint (I hate to use the word tactical) rather than a reliability standpoint.....I can see that side of the issue, but it makes me wonder. I've put lots of rounds through 1911/2011s and haven't had one break. As a competitor and instructor I've seen a lot more rounds go through guns with them and I haven't seen one break. All of that makes me wonder why someone would claim they're subject to breaking....hey, lugs shear off too, but nobody mentions that right? They can both happen, but both are pretty rare events and often caused by a faulty part or faulty fitting....not the style/design of the part. R,

[HSMITH]

Guide rods break because they are crap and/or they weren't fit right. Fit them right and use quality parts and you won't ever have a guide rod break.

Two piece rods are categorically crap, suitable only for tossing in the trash.

Full length guide rods don't solve anything, a bajillion rounds through government 45's proves they aren't needed. I've never had a gun that wasn't reliable become reliable with a full length rod installed, nor do I use them to increase reliability. Do they smooth the gun out a little? Yes. Do they save the spring a little? Yes. Do they offer the ability to manipulate the weight of the gun? Yes. That is about all they offer. Do they prevent you from doing some malfunction clearing techniques? Yes. Do they prevent you from doing some charging techniques? Yes.

Love 'em or hate 'em, doesn't really matter to me what anyone else thinks about them. I have them in some of my 1911 type guns and not in others. Some of my guns I would put one in and some I would not put one in. Everyone else can do as they like and it won't bother me one tiny little bit.

[kgunz11]

Not being inflammatory here, but his thread is bringing out some low post counters.

Might be time to close this one

I don't understand. Are people with low post count considered not worthy of posting on subject matter they may or may not have experience with? I see this kind of prejudice on other sites towards people with few posts or recent join dates, like post count is indicative of experience or something. "TGO" doesn't really have a high post count her per say, does that mean his opinion is devalidated? I concede to not being the most experienced person on the board on ANY subject matter. I only posted on what I gathered from watching the show with my interpretation in regards to the actual subject matter from the thread starter and considered myself contributing.

Did I totally misread your post zhunter? If so, my apologies.

[duncan]

I saw that installment. I think he was talking about the ability to rack the slide without a FLGR. Some might use the rear sight,but Ive tried it with a Novak rear, doesnt work for me.

[zhunter]

Not being inflammatory here, but his thread is bringing out some low post counters.

Might be time to close this one

I don't understand. Are people with low post count considered not worthy of posting on subject matter they may or may not have experience with? I see this kind of prejudice on other sites towards people with few posts or recent join dates, like post count is indicative of experience or something. "TGO" doesn't really have a high post count her per say, does that mean his opinion is devalidated? I concede to not being the most experienced person on the board on ANY subject matter. I only posted on what I gathered from watching the show with my interpretation in regards to the actual subject matter from the thread starter and considered myself contributing.

Did I totally misread your post zhunter? If so, my apologies.

Kgunz11

My post was somewhat, but not all tongue in cheek. Kgunz11, at times, tacti-cool-ers show up here to "flame the crowd" a bit, and then ride off into the sunset. I have friends that have done a LOT of training with Clint Smith. They worship the ground he stands on. And his teachings, which they take as gospel, would certainly NOT do them much good in our game. And, I think, that our game would do well to transfer over to Clint's world more seamlessly. So, my comment about low post counters was directed towards past history on the forum on threads of similar content to this one. I was NOT saying that low post counters have nothing, or very little to contribute.

I hope that clears things up, no harm meant.

Edited March 23, 2008 by zhunter

[revchuck]

All - Anyone who can talk S&W into re-introducing fixed-sight 4" N frames can't be all bad.

A consistant thread in Smith's writing is that adding "cool" stuff to guns often screws them up. He likes stock Glocks for their reliability, for example, and often sees "improved" ones puke on his range.

FLGRs in 1911s were once thought necessary for function in the pre-IPSC days. Since then (and a bunch of rounds downrange) it turns out that they don't contribute either way to reliability. Their main contribution is additional weight, which is why competitors like them. Many folks who carry 1911s on a full time basis, rather than use them exclusively on a range, feel that the added weight is a disadvantage. You pays your money, you takes your chances.

The consensus on this board seems to be that FLGRs are absolutely always best in all circumstances. Well...maybe not. I don't care either way, and use the traditional ones because I shoot a lot of cast bullets and want to be able to field strip my gun quickly without tools for cleaning. The extra weight won't influence my shooting enough to matter to me.

[kgunz11]

Not being inflammatory here, but his thread is bringing out some low post counters.

Might be time to close this one

I don't understand. Are people with low post count considered not worthy of posting on subject matter they may or may not have experience with? I see this kind of prejudice on other sites towards people with few posts or recent join dates, like post count is indicative of experience or something. "TGO" doesn't really have a high post count her per say, does that mean his opinion is devalidated? I concede to not being the most experienced person on the board on ANY subject matter. I only posted on what I gathered from watching the show with my interpretation in regards to the actual subject matter from the thread starter and considered myself contributing.

Did I totally misread your post zhunter? If so, my apologies.

Kgunz11

My post was somewhat, but not all tongue in cheek. Kgunz11, at times, tacti-cool-ers show up here to "flame the crowd" a bit, and then ride off into the sunset. I have friends that have done a LOT of training with Clint Smith. They worship the ground he stands on. And his teachings, which they take as gospel, would certainly NOT do them much good in our game. And, I think, that our game would do well to transfer over to Clint's world more seamlessly. So, my comment about low post counters was directed towards past history on the forum on threads of similar content to this one. I was NOT saying that low post counters have nothing, or very little to contribute.

I hope that clears things up, no harm meant.

Very good post Sir, and well said. I haven't seen the bad posters here, but I have witnessed it on other boards. With no disrespect, to CS or anyone here, I think this is the PERFECT place to respond to the TV episode in question. Is there another board with more experience with practical shooting anywhere? If there is I haven't heard of it. I came here because this is where the experts are. If CS said something on National Television, is it not the duty of the expert members here to set the story straight with experience and logic? I hope the tone of my post is not misinterpreted, my tone is sympathetic. I think you guys have the working knowledge to stifle any misinformation. If he said he liked GI guide rods and didn't explain why, then the SS Elite should respond with the pro's and con's of the shorter guide rod, as well as provide solid information for their choice in the FLGR. Yeah, the inexperienced guys need to sit down, shut up, and listen. My reason for posting in this thread is to offer my interpretation of what CS was trying to say in the episode in question.

If the public has been misinformed, set the story straight.

Now I'm going to sit down and learn something.

BTW, I have full length guide rods in everything because I believe it is a better system. If racking the slide is the only argument for the GI length, I can live without it.

[duncan]

Yes folks like me might have a low post count,But. Im 50 yrs old and have been shooting 1911s for over 30 years. I think I might have a handle on what ( I ) think is absolutely needed on one. Yes on my competition guns I have FLGRs. On my carry guns ( unless compacts that come with them) I dont. Never found the need to use them. If the gun is set up right it doesnt need it.

[shred]

Unless a thread goes off into a 'prohibited zone' (and there's a helpful link to them posted right up at the top right corner of every page), the mods are unlikely to close it just for the heck of it.

I've only got maybe a quarter million trouble-free rounds downrange on 1911 FLGRs... but then mine were fitted. I'm guessing Clint sees a lot of home-smithing attempts at his classes. I know other teachers that do. The part-du-jour crowd likes to think the next trick part is going to solve all their shooting woes that really just need a new nut behind the trigger installed. DIY FLGR install is not likely to be a winning proposition much of the time.

Not to digress into "tactical" content, which is discouraged, I also think it's funny that 'carry' guns "have" to be reliable while competition ones don't. Going bang five times in a row is a stretch for what most carry guns will ever _have_ to do, and they lead pampered lives compared to competition guns.

[zhunter]

Not to digress into "tactical" content, which is discouraged, I also think it's funny that 'carry' guns "have" to be reliable while competition ones don't. Going bang five times in a row is a stretch for what most carry guns will ever _have_ to do, and they lead pampered lives compared to competition guns.

That is a very profound post.

[walangkatapat]

Yes folks like me might have a low post count,But. Im 50 yrs old and have been shooting 1911s for over 30 years. I think I might have a handle on what ( I ) think is absolutely needed on one. Yes on my competition guns I have FLGRs. On my carry guns ( unless compacts that come with them) I dont. Never found the need to use them. If the gun is set up right it doesnt need it.

If you don't trust full lengths on your carry gun, why do you for competition?

[revchuck]

Not to digress into "tactical" content, which is discouraged, I also think it's funny that 'carry' guns "have" to be reliable while competition ones don't. Going bang five times in a row is a stretch for what most carry guns will ever _have_ to do, and they lead pampered lives compared to competition guns.

[thread drift]

I only have one "competition" gun (two if you count the Ruger MK II bullseye gun), the rest of the guns I shoot in competition are at least occasionally carried. They need to be reliable as well, since a) there's a lot more on the line if I need to use them for self-defense than in a match, b ) I practice with them, and jams are distracting in that context, and c ) since I use them in competition, I'll get picked on unmercifully if one of my carry guns puke at a match.

[/thread drift]

Edited March 23, 2008 by revchuck

[kgunz11]

Yes folks like me might have a low post count,But. Im 50 yrs old and have been shooting 1911s for over 30 years. I think I might have a handle on what ( I ) think is absolutely needed on one. Yes on my competition guns I have FLGRs. On my carry guns ( unless compacts that come with them) I dont. Never found the need to use them. If the gun is set up right it doesnt need it.

If you don't trust full lengths on your carry gun, why do you for competition?

Never said he didn't trust them, he said "Never found the need to use them."

[duncan]

Yes folks like me might have a low post count,But. Im 50 yrs old and have been shooting 1911s for over 30 years. I think I might have a handle on what ( I ) think is absolutely needed on one. Yes on my competition guns I have FLGRs. On my carry guns ( unless compacts that come with them) I dont. Never found the need to use them. If the gun is set up right it doesnt need it.

If you don't trust full lengths on your carry gun, why do you for competition?

Never said he didn't trust them, he said "Never found the need to use them."

Thanks, Like was said above. Its not that I dont trust them,just not a needed item.

[duncan]

Yes folks like me might have a low post count,But. Im 50 yrs old and have been shooting 1911s for over 30 years. I think I might have a handle on what ( I ) think is absolutely needed on one. Yes on my competition guns I have FLGRs. On my carry guns ( unless compacts that come with them) I dont. Never found the need to use them. If the gun is set up right it doesnt need it.

If you don't trust full lengths on your carry gun, why do you for competition?

I also dont have 2# triggers on my carry guns. But I do on my comp. guns. No Im not of the tacti-cool crowd. I just said what works for ME. A tuned extractor,good sights and a good reliability tune up is definitley alot higher on my list than an FLGR.

[G-ManBart]

Not to digress into "tactical" content, which is discouraged, I also think it's funny that 'carry' guns "have" to be reliable while competition ones don't. Going bang five times in a row is a stretch for what most carry guns will ever _have_ to do, and they lead pampered lives compared to competition guns.

That is a very profound post.

Hey, that's what I've been saying all along

I'd be willing to bet that the average carry gun goes it's entire life without getting the same amount of use as we put through a race gun in one year. I have three primary carry guns and they get 1-2,000 rounds through them each on a typical year. The high round count for any of them in one year was right around 5,000 and that's way more than most people ever put through a carry gun....how often does anyone average 100rds every week, all year long with their carry gun? It's a great idea, but it's not common.

[duncan]

I agree with G MAN. My non competition guns see very limited use compared to my Limited or SS guns. But I've never witnessed an occasion that a GI guide rod cause a problem. Maybe some of you have ,Im just saying I never have.

[Guy Neill]

Here's a bit I wrote some time back on this subject.

FLGR write up

Guy

[dsb45acp]

Came back to look at the thread and now I feel like I stirred a big pot of something that doesn't smell too good! I feel like this is my fault because ZH posted right after me and I admitally have a low post count. I spend much more time lurking then I do posting because most of the time it seems people with MUCH more experience then I have answer the questions. Maybe I wasn't clear in my first post or maybe I came off like an AH which wasn't my intent. The only point I was trying to make is that I believe people should use what works for them and makes their gun reliable whether it be a competition or carry gun. If I wasn't clear or offended any body I apologize. This is absolutely the best shooting related forum on the internet and I respect the moderators and members here so if I did offend any one please close this thread or delete my post.

Thanks every body,

Doug Breaux

[Singlestack]

Enough.

I have deleted some of the inflammatory posts I'm this thread. If your post disappeared you need to re-read the forum guidelines.

Man up and post with some self discipline.

I am not going to close this thread but I will delete less than respectful opinions so quit asking for it to be closed.

Thanks,

Your Rogue Moderating Staff

[Shawn Knight]

FLGRs work. No matter what JMB wanted in the gun. They work. When fitted incorrectly they don't work. They break, they unscrew, they chip, they bind, and there is probably something else they do that someone will post if they have not already.

Whether you like them or not, it is a matter of personal preference and they are here to stay.

[walangkatapat]

Yes folks like me might have a low post count,But. Im 50 yrs old and have been shooting 1911s for over 30 years. I think I might have a handle on what ( I ) think is absolutely needed on one. Yes on my competition guns I have FLGRs. On my carry guns ( unless compacts that come with them) I dont. Never found the need to use them. If the gun is set up right it doesnt need it.

If you don't trust full lengths on your carry gun, why do you for competition?

Never said he didn't trust them, he said "Never found the need to use them."

If you don't trust them for carry why would you trust them for competition? Seems to me the gun that gets used the most, ie comp gun you'd want the most reliable parts.