Does IDPA Need A Grand Master Classification ?

[gb32]

After reading this topic, my head hurts! Seems like this comes up every so often. For the life of me, I don't understand why there should be another class above MA. Is it so guys who make it into that class still have a chance at a trophy or plaque? Let's face it, when you move up in class in either sport, the competition gets better. More dedicated, more prepared, just flat out better. Therefore, you are going to have to work harder to keep up. As far as having a full time job, no free time etc.......whatever. I work two part time jobs that total 60 hrs a week and make time to work on my game. If you're not willing to do that, then that's your decision. I've made the decision to be the best shooter I can be. Competing against top shooters to me is fun. Who wouldn't want to know how they stack up against the very best? As far as the top guys shooting for a living, I imagine that once upon a time, they were alot like anyone else. Working a job and practicing when they could. It's not like they got picked out of a lineup, given a gun and unlimited ammo and suddenly were world champions.

Do classifiers really translate to match performance? I shoot the IDPA classifier in the 80s. I rarely shoot one because I don't have to. I spend the lion's share of my practice time on my weaknesses and the most important skills. There is very little movement in the IDPA classifier or in most the USPSA classifiers that I've shot. Yet, this is a most important skill in matches. I've never seen a column on a results sheet that listed whether you had a day job or not (or for that matter, that you had a bad day, gun broke, clouds were in your eyes, etc). Just your name and what you scored. Get to work or don't.

For the record my name is Gary Byerly, A15147, A57152.

[RickB]

Do classifiers really translate to match performance? I shoot the IDPA classifier in the 80s. I rarely shoot one because I don't have to.

Actually, you have to shoot it annually, to maintain your classification.

[HuskySig]

Do classifiers really translate to match performance? I shoot the IDPA classifier in the 80s. I rarely shoot one because I don't have to.

Actually, you have to shoot it annually, to maintain your classification.

Unless you're a Master. From page 52:

Obtain a valid classification and maintain it by shooting the classifier at least once every twelve (12) months (except master class shooters).

mattk

[shooterready]

After reading this topic, my head hurts! Seems like this comes up every so often. For the life of me, I don't understand why there should be another class above MA. Is it so guys who make it into that class still have a chance at a trophy or plaque?

Yup, that just about sums it up.

Isn't that why each classification allows you to compete with equal skilled individuals?

Right now, MA in IDPA is not so equal.

If it doesn't change so be it. I'll just keep shooting and training.

But, making a change like this can only help the sport, IMO.

Dick

[Loves2Shoot]

After reading this topic, my head hurts! Seems like this comes up every so often. For the life of me, I don't understand why there should be another class above MA. Is it so guys who make it into that class still have a chance at a trophy or plaque?

Yup, that just about sums it up.

Isn't that why each classification allows you to compete with equal skilled individuals?

Right now, MA in IDPA is not so equal.

If it doesn't change so be it. I'll just keep shooting and training.

But, making a change like this can only help the sport, IMO.

Dick

Did you go and look at the major match results and the spread in the Master class? It is no more than any other class, and less than most of them.

[Chills1994]

I took the results from a few major matches and ran them through a stats program called SPSS. For each class in a division, I would get between, IIRC, 60 to 100 seconds for a standard deviation.

This was for semi-autos, because there are just NOT enough revolver shooters to make running the stats on them worthwhile.

[shooterready]

OK, I crunched some numbers from this match. Looked at only ESP and SSP for sake of arguement.

I compared the minimum master to expert data actual and normalized. Normalized MA being I threw out the known GM times. For EX I threw out the folks that got bumped.

The results are as follows:

ESP MA min time = 146.96

ESP MA min norm = 173.68

delta = 26.72

ESP EX min time = 196.11

ESP EX min norm = 202.01

delta = 5.90

The two ESP deltas are 78% diff

SSP MA min time = 134.55

SSP MA min norm = 192.79

delta = 58.24

SSP EX min time = 204.25

SSP EX min norm = 216.29

delta = 12.04

The two SSP deltas are 79 % diff

If classifications were set properly there should be less than a 15-20% diff in min scores.

I believe these numbers speak for themselves.....

[Loves2Shoot]

I'm not sure what match you are referring too, but if you go through the major matches and use a large data set, your results will be much different. I looked at 20 matches to get enough data to draw my statistical conclusions.

Few matches had more than 5 masters in a Division and most had 1-3.

Edited March 24, 2008 by Loves2Shoot

[shooterready]

I'm looking at the S&W IDPA Indoor Nationals from this year. That is what motivated this current thread.

You need only look at the matches which include top GMs vs. regular IDPA masters. Given that is what we are talking about here.

Even USPSA adjusts classification HHFs based on when the top guys get even better. These classification times have been there from the start in IDPA. They need adjusting. I don't have to be called a master for my ego, although it helps at times, with the ladies. I just want to compete with like skilled individuals. Isn't that what IDPA and USPSA is about? Not everyone is a top competitor and we know there is only but one winner. There is a competitive spirit in all of us, this is how we were raised. Losing fuels the desire for winning and building ones character. I'm not afraid to lose because it teaches me more than winning. I just don't like to lose

If I could afford the time, money, and possible divorce. I could possibly approach the big dawgs. But, for me, I just do not have the desire. I enjoy where I'm at and devoting myself to endless hours of practice will surely remove the fun of it for me. Some may not understand this, but I do not always understand the others point of view as well.

But, as most, we've again beaten the dead horse here.

So I'm head to the range for some practice which will hopefully put me that much closer to hanging with the BIG dawgs. Kids are in school, wife is working, me on vacation

[boo radley]

In small "major" matches, all bets are off....But in big ones, such as the S&W Nationals, I think ShooterReady has a point:

For SSP in Master class, the average was: 212 seconds. But the winner shot 65% of the average.

For SSP in Expert class, the average was: 262 seconds. The winner shot 85% of the average.

I didn't do other matches, 'cause it's tedious.

Does this matter? Probably not -- I doubt anything will change, but it's clear when USPSA GM's or the IDPA equivalent is in a match, there's a pretty big gap between the average master and the GM.

Besides -- looking at results, I'm not sure either you OR Gary is a poster child for a working classification system. You're a competitive USPSA GM, and yet only an ESP Expert? (in the 2007 Oregon IDPA match). And you destroyed everyone by like what, 20 seconds? And Gary, who's a top IDPA shooter, and places well in whatever USPSA matches he shoots at...is B/C class?

Edited March 24, 2008 by boo radley

[Loves2Shoot]

looking at results, I'm not sure either you OR Gary is a poster child for a working classification system. You're a competitive USPSA GM, and yet only an ESP Expert? (in the 2007 Oregon IDPA match). And you destroyed everyone by like what, 20 seconds?

Hey, it was my 4th IDPA match and I've only shot the classifier match twice. I missed M by .04 seconds on my second try and I suck at the IDPA reloads. Dropping mags and then putting them in your pocket isn't so good

When it come down to it, I just don't see making another class for a handful of people. I don't think the classification systems work well anyway, as most courses of fire for the classifiers don't resemble the rest of the stages in a match anyway, and people try to "manage" their classifications.

I guess the more I shoot the less I care about classification This looks like it would be class that rarely anyone would show up from the results I've seen.

[kdmoore]

Here's 2 moore scents, I mean 2 more cents to consider.

The "width" of the classifications follow more a less a pattern.

Marksman ~55 seconds

Sharpshooter ~30 seconds

Expert ~20 seconds

makes sense to me that you could put another class break in somewhere around 12 to 15 seconds below the current Master class upper limit and follow the "trend" (I know, that's a stretch given the roughness of the numbers).

Couple of observations:

Normally I'd say the next step is to determine if the population numbers support the creation of another class (as LTS alludes to above) but I don't think IDPA really cares that much about that, if they deem it the right thing to do in keeping with the intent of the sport they'll do it. I like this about IDPA (principal driven). Exhibit #1 is the split of revolver classes.

But I also don't think they are hesitant to "monkey" around with the classifier. i.e. in the split of the revolver classes, some ended up with classifications earned with guns/loads no longer allowed in the division. Also, IMHO, the classifier probably should have been changed to remove the rwr/tac rl stuff as it officially became discouraged from being mandated in matches ....

Of course, ymmv!

-K

[Chills1994]

Loves2Shoot back on page 3 wrote:

I went through the major match results for 2007, and there aren't an abundance of Masters in IDPA. If it is so easy to make Master I would think the percentage of Master shooters would be much higher. If IDPA master is so easy to make, then the majority of IDPA shooters are just of a very poor skill level according to the numbers from the match results.

I think if everyone who thinks there should be a GM class did this, then they would see there isn't much more than 10% difference in score when there were multiple masters.

I put the first sentence in bold for a reason.

Let me put my thinking critically hat on for a few minutes and also inject some of my observations / experiences / interactions with IDPA Masters (and some USPSA GM's and Masters).

I have met a few IDPA Masters at major matches. We have either chit chatted via email or PM's on this forum or other forums. Some are or were sponsored shooters. NO! I am not going to name names.

I'll try to make this short, really.

Basically, once a person hits Master in IDPA, at the local level, there is a lot of jealousy, politic-ing, gossiping, and in general 8th grade pettiness and ass-hatery going on.

That's not just from one general geographical area either. I've heard that from several Masters (and GM's) from all over the US.

When the Masters do show up to a local match or even a big state match, they already feel like they have a target on their backs.

I've read reports from several Master's that the MD will essentially sic a roving squad of SO's on them and he'll got followed from stage to stage just hoping that the (sponsored?) Master class shooter will screw up on a stage and there will be several SO's all clamoring over each other to yell out "PROCEDURAL! PROCEDURAL!!" "CHEATER CHEATER!!"

So those Master level shooters jump ship and go shoot USPSA instead. I think they think that their level of proficiency is more appreciated there.

So, for them, shooting a local IDPA or even a state or regional match just ain't worth the headaches of being shadowed by a squad of SO's.

I would surmise also that some just hit that Master level and don't like the ass-hatery and drop out of shooting entirely. USPSA doesn't even appeal to them.

@ Loves2Shoot, that may explain why you don't see too many Masters in the match results you combed through.

For them, maybe, just maybe, the only match worth shooting is IDPA Nat's.

Did you take a look at how many Masters have been shooting IDPA Nat's (and possibly the S&W indoor match) the past few years?

All eyes are on Nat's, so if there is even one whiff of ass-hatery going on, everybody is going to know about it either on this forum or just via the internet.

Case in point, just look at how that FTDR thread went here. IIRC, it got rather heated and the thread was locked down. And I would imagine that half the posters in that thread weren't even there, Monday Morning Quarterbacking the Nat's staff.

<shaking my head here>

There are more IDPA Masters out there than the 2007 Major match results would lead you to believe.

You could always call Berryville and ask.

Edited March 24, 2008 by Chills1994

[Loves2Shoot]

Got it, I think what you are saying beside the Nats and the S&W match the big time shooters don't show up, which makes the average M shooter feel over classed when they do. I figured they must be out there, I just didn't see them in the results.

I've had those conversations with top end shooter too, but around here we shoot whatever we can and have fun at it as there aren't as many matches and the folks don't get caught up too much in the bs. When shooting IDPA I figure I'll try to drop less points than anyone else as not to be "branded." Thanks.

Edited March 24, 2008 by Loves2Shoot

[HuskySig]

looking at results, I'm not sure either you OR Gary is a poster child for a working classification system. You're a competitive USPSA GM, and yet only an ESP Expert? (in the 2007 Oregon IDPA match). And you destroyed everyone by like what, 20 seconds?

Hey, it was my 4th IDPA match and I've only shot the classifier match twice. I missed M by .04 seconds on my second try and I suck at the IDPA reloads. Dropping mags and then putting them in your pocket isn't so good

I'm ok with L2S beating me by 20 seconds. I've known for awhile now that I can't hang with GMs when they're having a great day.

mattk

Edited March 24, 2008 by HuskySig

[Bigbadaboom]

Or you could do like I do and never shoot an IDPA classifier so you remain unclassified. Then you are just shooting for H.O.A. and nothing else. I kind of wish I could have done this in USPSA/IPSC.

Like Here

Edited March 25, 2008 by Bigbadaboom

[Loves2Shoot]

Or you could do like I do and never shoot an IDPA classifier so you remain unclassified. Then you are just shooting for H.O.A. and nothing else. I kind of wish I could have done this in USPSA/IPSC.

Like Here

Some clubs won't let you shoot without a classifier on record (especially if they don't know you), but I like the idea

[Bones]

After reading this topic, my head hurts! Seems like this comes up every so often. For the life of me, I don't understand why there should be another class above MA. Is it so guys who make it into that class still have a chance at a trophy or plaque? Let's face it, when you move up in class in either sport, the competition gets better. More dedicated, more prepared, just flat out better. Therefore, you are going to have to work harder to keep up. As far as having a full time job, no free time etc.......whatever. I work two part time jobs that total 60 hrs a week and make time to work on my game. If you're not willing to do that, then that's your decision. I've made the decision to be the best shooter I can be. Competing against top shooters to me is fun. Who wouldn't want to know how they stack up against the very best? As far as the top guys shooting for a living, I imagine that once upon a time, they were alot like anyone else. Working a job and practicing when they could. It's not like they got picked out of a lineup, given a gun and unlimited ammo and suddenly were world champions.

Do classifiers really translate to match performance? I shoot the IDPA classifier in the 80s. I rarely shoot one because I don't have to. I spend the lion's share of my practice time on my weaknesses and the most important skills. There is very little movement in the IDPA classifier or in most the USPSA classifiers that I've shot. Yet, this is a most important skill in matches. I've never seen a column on a results sheet that listed whether you had a day job or not (or for that matter, that you had a bad day, gun broke, clouds were in your eyes, etc). Just your name and what you scored. Get to work or don't.

For the record my name is Gary Byerly, A15147, A57152.

This man is brilliant and sums it up rather nicely. Well said Master Byerly.

Craig

Edited March 26, 2008 by Bones

[detonics]

The question was asked somewhere in this thread as to the breakdown of classifications in IDPA. We have consulted the database and although we are still adding to it, the results to date are interesting. There are currently 4,000 individual members with a classification listed out of a total active membership of 14,000. the classification breakdown is as follows:

Novice 4.87%

Marksman 37.18%

Sharpshooter 34.01%

Expert 15.46%

Master 8.47%

I don't have a comment on this for now other than to provide the asked for info and thank the members fro keeping this civil and interesting.

Robert Ray

IDPA HQ

[Loves2Shoot]

Thanks Robert!

6.776 Masters per state average. If 10% of the masters are "extra special" then you have 33.88 people who might qualify for the extra special label.

Dang, I changed my mind, that would be worth a new classification!

[Shawn Knight]

Why not call it Super-Mega Master??

Grandmaster sounds so.... Practical.

[Glshooter]

I'm just shocked that out of 14,000 members only 4000 have a classification.

[Shawn Knight]

I'm just shocked that out of 14,000 members only 4000 have a classification.

I think too many tacticool people join, shoot one match, and become jaded to the "game". The hardest part about getting people to come back is getting them to realize that they are not the bad ass they thought they were.

Some of us just move to a place that doesn't shoot IDPA that often.

Like me!

[Hot Brass]

Glshooter,

Keep in mind that IDPA HQ has only started keeping a database of classifications recently (maybe 18 months). Initially, individuals could enter their classifications, but starting in Jan 07, only MD's can enter classification data. On top of that, the ability to upload batch data into the classification database has only been available for the last 6 months. I would suggest that the reason there are only 4000 classifications is that most MD's don't have the time or technology to enter or upload the data. MD's are so highly paid now, that adding another chore like this just thrills them.

Joking aside, I think most MD's want to get their classifications into the HQ database, but have not found a convenient way to do it yet. I know that Beach Bunny has a free utility for uploading results, but even that has it's limitations because clubs use so many different software programs to keep score.

[Mayonaise]

As Gary mentioned it's a trophy/plaque sport. So BFD. If there was real money on the line then I could see people caring. Otherwise it's another waste of bandwidth.