BDH Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Start Position: Standing behind counter, both wrists above respective shoulders, loaded gun and magazines to be used on the shelf under the counter. Gun must be on it side - not propped up by any artifical means. Magazines may be flat or on edge on the shelf. Neither the gun nor the magazines may extend beyond the open edge of the shelf. Stage Procedure: Upon start signal, from behind the counter engage T1 - T3 with only two rounds per target. Then make a mandatory reload with a magazine taken from the shelf and from behind the counter engage T1 - T3 with only two rounds per target. Shooter hears 'beep'.... grabs the gun aggressively.... fires shot #1, and the gun does a 'speed unload' ..... shooter grabs reload mag off the shelf and finishes the first six rounds. Then grabs a mag off belt.... places it on the shelf..... grabs it from the shelf.... reloads, and finishes the stage. What's your call? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Brian, My call? Score and patch ............. WYSIWYG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 If I could give them bonus points I would, for putting the mag from the belt to the shelf to the gun... beautiful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 I'm with Vince, score it. The shooter is hosed anyway, it can't be fast to do all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecutts Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Cheer. Cuss the man/woman gets an A for effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 23, 2003 Author Share Posted May 23, 2003 Uncle Vinnie/L2S, but the mag was not on the shelf as specified??? EW/DC, this happened SOOOO fast that I was blown away. To be able to recover from the 'speed unload' and then have the presence of mind to pull a mag from the belt, drop it on the shelf before going to the gun for the mandatory reload..... well, lets just say.... that is completely beyond me!!! Anyone else?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Man whoever did that is a stud. Technically it came from the shelf if it was on it, even for a split second. Besides he should be awarded style points also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Brian, The key to this incident is that the competitor complied with the stage procedure because he made "a mandatory reload with a magazine taken from the shelf", so a procedural penalty does not apply. If someone tells you "the competitor did not comply with the start position", OK, then it's a reshoot just like if he started with his hands by his sides instead of in the surrender position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Wow. That's why i put extra mags on the shelf for that one on Saturday. Just in case... Kudos to the shooter for having the presence of mind (or experience) to react that way. But...since he did seem to comply with the instructions...Score 'em and paste 'em! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 The second best thing he could'a done is look for an RO to run into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 23, 2003 Author Share Posted May 23, 2003 The key to this incident is that the competitor complied with the stage procedure because he made "a mandatory reload with a magazine taken from the shelf", so a procedural penalty does not apply. Vince, you take all the fun out of this! The RO running the shooter called one Procedural, and I over-ruled the call. The funny thing was that after this happened, I thought about it, and was starting to question my call. I did come to the same conclusion as you, but if I had been pressed at the time, I would have struggled. I guess that is the difference between a Jr Jedi in training, and Darth.... Stalion, I can't remember who it was, but it was definately one of the 'studliest' things I've seen (other than Robbie going flat on his back last year, and recovering). Have you turned your hat around yet? All, okay, the mag came from the shelf...... did the shooter actually let go of it? Does the shooter have to let go of it, if it touches the shelf? If the shooter does not have to let go of the mag, can he/she just touch the outside of the shelf, on the way to the gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 BDH, What was his time? You have to do mini in about 5 to be in the running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Stalion, I can't remember who it was, but it was definately one of the 'studliest' things I've seen (other than Robbie going flat on his back last year, and recovering). Have you turned your hat around yet? Nope, and I don't plan on it. Besides, that's one way everyone will know who I am, what other punk would wear his hat backwards at a shooting match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 ???? Studly as that may be... The only mags in play here are the ones placed on the shelf (the one in the gun counts...pick it up off the ground). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 23, 2003 Author Share Posted May 23, 2003 BDH, What was his time? You have to do mini in about 5 to be in the running. I honestly don't remember, but it 'seemed' fast for all the extra effort (maybe upper 6's, or low 7's). Not trying to hide anything here, but people ask all the time who ran things the fastest, etc., and I just don't even focus on that stuff. My goal is to get everyone safely through my stage, make sure everyone shoots the exact same stage. When it comes to times, they all blend together (although I do remember that someone shot that stage in 4.97, but 'I' d*mn near beat them because they whacked a NS ). Besides, that's one way everyone will know who I am, what other punk would wear his hat backwards at a shooting match?. Okay, then I will wear my hat backwards in Barry and see it people confuse us... The only mags in play here are the ones placed on the shelf (the one in the gun counts...pick it up off the ground). Flex, no 'salad spinner' for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Stallion - don't feel like the loner who wears their hat backwards when they shoot. Threequartertime does the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Yeah but I'll be the young one and (since 3quartertime is there) you'll know it isn't him because my gun will actually work. *ducks behind cover* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 BDH, I don't understand where your doubts may come from. The stage briefing was very clear on the mags positioning: ...magazines to be used on the shelf under the counter. and ...make a mandatory reload with a magazine taken from the shelf... It doesn't say that additional mags cannot be put on the shelf after the start signal. The shooter put the extra magazine he intended to use on the shelf, thus he complied with Start Position. What about if the mag on the shelf proves to be a defective one, or the shooter runs dry before hitting the targets? The shooter wants to use another mag, but he didn't place it on the shelf, so he is not able to finish the COF? If a shooter consciously wants to waste his time in picking one up from the belt, place it on the shelf and then using it for a mandary reload, all while the meter is running, I personally don't care. In this specific case, my hat is off to a shooter who had the nerve to comply with stage briefing during a gun malfunction remedial action. I don't think I would ever penalize him twice for trying to do things the correct way. Regarding your second question: provided he lays the mag flat or on the edge on the shelf, complying with stage requirement, it is not specified that the shooter has to let it go; this also pretty much eliminates the possibility of him just touching the outside of the shelf, on the way to the gun, because the stage briefing says: Neither the gun nor the magazines may extend beyond the open edge of the shelf. Now, thinking about the competitor running dry, raises to me a general question: is there any specific rule preventing the competitor from safely holstering his handgun as required by 5.3.3 and 8.5.2 during the COF, leaving the stage for picking up a fresh mag from his bag, or even going to have a cup of coffe, then coming back to finish the stage? I know this such behaviour has to be faulty somewhere, but I couldn't find a rule that prevents this. BTW, looks like Darth's jedi family is growing up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 23, 2003 Author Share Posted May 23, 2003 Skywalker, Actually, I was just double checking my call. Remember, the stage RO called one Procedural, and I over-ruled it (in other words, we did NOT give him the penalty). Then what happened was that I was riding home with another CRO and of course we talked about the calls we made, and debated a couple of them (we also over-ruled an RM call, but don't tell anyone ). Unfortunately, we did not have the actual stage description with us, so I pulled my classifier book once I got home and had to think through this one. I was sure I made the correct call in over-ruling the RO, but I also thought this was an interesting situation because the start position says 'magazines to be used on the shelf' , the stage procedure says 'the reload must come from the shelf', and clearly, the shooter did not comply with something. Okay, technically, the reload DID come from the shelf, but it was with a mag that was NOT on the shelf to start with. I think VP nailed this with the shooter complied with the stage procedure, but actually was not in the correct 'start position'. It doesn't say that additional mags cannot be put on the shelf after the start signal.The shooter put the extra magazine he intended to use on the shelf, thus he complied with Start Position. I hear you but am not 100% sure I agree. Remember, the start position said 'magazines to be used on shelf', and the mag he used for his reload was not on the shelf at the start. While it doesn't specifically say that you can not put additional magazines on the shelf after the start, it does say, 'magazines to be used on shelf'. I would interpret that (possibly incorrectly) as meaning ALL magazines to be used on shelf at the start. What about if the mag on the shelf proves to be a defective one, or the shooter runs dry before hitting the targets? The shooter wants to use another mag, but he didn't place it on the shelf, so he is not able to finish the COF? That's an issue, and I think that's why probably 75% of the competitors put at least one extra mag on the shelf (in addition to their reload mag). In this specific case, my hat is off to a shooter who had the nerve to comply with stage briefing during a gun malfunction remedial action. I don't think I would ever penalize him twice for trying to do things the correct way. Actually, this was not a gun malfunction, this was a shooter malfunction. When he grabbed his gun off the shelf, he inadvertently pushed the mag release and did a 'speed unload' (as we refer to them here in Buckeye land ). Also, remember, I did NOT penalize him. I thought... 1) okay, he 'did' reload with a mag off the shelf so he complied with the procedure, and 2) he actually penalized himself by having to do two reloads instead of one, and having to go to the belt, then the shelf, and then reload. Regarding your second question: provided he lays the mag flat or on the edge on the shelf, complying with stage requirement, it is not specified that the shooter has to let it go; I agree, and this may be a stretch, but if the competitor is trying to comply with the 'start position' by sticking his magazine on the shelf, then under 8.2.3 he should not be 'touching' it, correct? is there any specific rule preventing the competitor from safely holstering his handgun as required by 5.3.3 and 8.5.2 during the COF, leaving the stage for picking up a fresh mag from his bag, or even going to have a cup of coffe, then coming back to finish the stage? Hmmmm, great question. My first thought was 'hell with the rule, if the shooter wants to leave the stage with a loaded gun, I am going to tackle him, and unload it for him!' But thinking about this, it would seem that as long as he 1) safely holstered, and 2) was accompanied by an RO who kept him under his direct supervision, and 3) he also bought the RO a cup of coffee, then this would 'seem' to be okay (let me rephrase that and say.... it actually seems wrong, but I don't know of a rule that would prevent it). BTW, looks like Darth's jedi family is growing up! Well, I have a long way to go to my official Jedi card from Darth, plus he put the added pressure on me of being the 'official safety area inspector' for all the Nats this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Brian, Stop beating yourself up, dude. You made the right call by overturning the procedural penalty. Ya done good, and you've earned two more Darth brownie points! Six more, and you win a set of Ginsu steak knives. If the briefing wanted to eliminate any doubt, it should say: "only magazines placed on the shelf under the counter prior to the start signal can be used". It didn't say that, so kudos to the competitor who went through the motions and observed the spirit of the briefing. As far as a competitor leaving a stage with a loaded gun to get a latte at Starbucks is concerned, we have a little rule on the drawing board to deal with that but I hope, no, I pray, that every RO in the world would yell "STOP" if a competitor tried to do so. I also pray that no RO would ever lose focus on the competitor under his care not to immediately react. You see, if we have to start writing rules to deal with ROs from the Planet Fubar, then we might as well write rules to deal with earthquakes, alien landings, spontaneous combustion of targets and what to do if an RO keels over and dies from heart failure induced by excessive consumption of Hershey bars during a course of fire. Please don't make me write those kinda rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 23, 2003 Author Share Posted May 23, 2003 Stop beating yourself up, dude. VP, hey, I'm not beating myself up! Just trying to make sure I d*mn well understand what can sometimes be confusing rules. I guess that is a flaw of mine.... I always want to know the answer! Maybe this has something to do with the fact that it appears that I'm working SIX level III matches as a CRO this year! I want to make sure that I do not get 'the special John Amidon handshake'...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 2) he actually penalized himself by having to do two reloads instead of one, This part has ZERO bearing, right? I forgot to do a reload on a stage last weekend...went into a window and ran my gun dry. I also had a mike on that stage, can I get the mike removed 'cause I already did bad' ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Flex, Sometimes stage procedures are open to interpretation, scored targets are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Clearly a procedural should have been assessed. The competitor used a magazine from his belt. Magazines to be used are to be placed on the shelf prior to the start signal. I would like to see what John Amidon would have to say about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Ron, clearly procedural penalties are to assessed for infractions of the course procedure. He complied with it. The magazine placement clause was part of the start position, with which he also complied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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