Ron Ankeny Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Erik: I am a pretty linear (that's anal to most) thinker and from what I am reading, the magazines to be used are supposed to be placed on the shelf before the start signal. The competitor used a magazine from his belt after the start signal and that just seems wrong whether he put it on the shelf before inserting it into the pistol or not. I would think the only way the competitor could have fulfilled the requirements would have been to pick the magazine up off of the ground. I honestly don't know if there would be a re-shoot or a procedural but allowing the score to stand as shot just isn't right. At the local level if this happened as a classifer I would assign a procedural for the match score then allow a re-shoot for classification purposes because the first attempt did not accurately reflect the shooter's known ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 I agree with Ron completely. (and I am usually much more gamey than he is ) Neither the gun nor the magazines ...to be used... may extended beyond the open edge of the shelf. ------------- L2S, I was being rhetorical in my last post. To be more clear in my point... It doesn't matter if a shooter shot the the COF in two seconds or fifty-two seconds...performance has ZERO to do with the application of the rules. The fact that the shooter "did bad...and already penalized himself" is a non-issue. Score everybody the same way...it's only fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 "magazines to be used" ... I'm sure the shooter had every intention of using the pre-placed magazine. Even if you knew he didn't intend to use it (maybe you overheard him brag about how he was going to game this stage) you can't give a procedural penalty when he complied with the course procedure. Don't be penalizing shooters to compensate for the designer's inability to write his course description to cover all possibilities. "Reload using only an ammunition feeding device that was on the shelf at the start." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 23, 2003 Author Share Posted May 23, 2003 2) he actually penalized himself by having to do two reloads instead of one, This part has ZERO bearing, right? Flex, to directly answer your question, you are correct, this part really had no bearing in my decision to over-rule the Procedural. I pulled the Procedural because I viewed this as the shooter DID comply with the stage procedure. It was unconventional at best, but he did comply. I threw in the other comment only from the standpoint of trying to back up my decision with the logic, that if I did blow this call (in other words, the Procedural should have stood), then at least the shooter already sort of penalized themself. This was the classic case of having to make a decision and move on, and not being 110% sure of the call at the time. It's also the reason why I posted this up here, as this was kind of a weird situation. I still like VP's analysis of the shooter DID comply with the stage procedure, but DID NOT comply with the start position (besides, that call means I made the correct decision ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Erik: I agree that we can't go around imposing penalties on shooters just because a stage briefing is poorly written. However, this is a classifier that has been shot all over the country for years and it's clear how the stage is to be fired. The procedure clearly states, "Then make a mandatory reload with a magazine taken from the shelf..." It obvious to me that the shooter took the magazine from his belt. It seems to me like you guys are telling me that he took the magazine from the shelf because he put it there after he took it from his belt. Darn it, there I go again, he took it from his belt, lol. Like I said, I am just too much of a legalistic thinker for these kinds of debates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 23, 2003 Author Share Posted May 23, 2003 Ron, I hear you loud and clear! In fact, on our ride back from the match, I was talking about how poorly the start position/stage procedure was written. I think I told the guy I was riding with..... 'd*mn it, they should have used the write-up straight out of the Classifier Book, to make sure this was right!' Then once I got a look at the Classifier Book, I realized that they DID use the actual write-up! Oops, I hope John A. didn't write this....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 QUOTEis there any specific rule preventing the competitor from safely holstering his handgun as required by 5.3.3 and 8.5.2 during the COF, leaving the stage for picking up a fresh mag from his bag, or even going to have a cup of coffe, then coming back to finish the stage? Hmmmm, great question. My first thought was 'hell with the rule, if the shooter wants to leave the stage with a loaded gun, I am going to tackle him, and unload it for him!' But thinking about this, it would seem that as long as he 1) safely holstered, and 2) was accompanied by an RO who kept him under his direct supervision, and 3) he also bought the RO a cup of coffee, then this would 'seem' to be okay (let me rephrase that and say.... it actually seems wrong, but I don't know of a rule that would prevent it). 5.7.4 Under no circumstances shall a competitor be permitted to leave a course of fire in the possession of a loaded firearm. No option for the RO to go with him. No penalty stated. No DQ, you did tell him to load. Go for the tackle, you MUST stop him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Or you could say STOP!, like Vince said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Can ya wing him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muser Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 The start position is clearly defined. It says, .....magazines to be used on the shelf under the counter...., not in a mag pouch. This has to take place before the start signal. Therefore, mags taken from the belt after the start signal are illegal and technically unavailable in the stage, no matter how you "dress them up" by touching the shelf with them. A penalty should have been assessed. What stops someone from pulling a mag from his belt, rather than the shelf, after having a bad first pass at the targets in order to get a reshoot based on the views of some here that he is only in noncompliance of the start position if he performs such an action? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muser Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 The only way the shooter could/should have avoided a penalty, in this case, was to either put more mags on the shelf prior to the start signal, or retrieve the mag that was accidentally dropped from the gun. On any other stage, a shooter who runs his gun dry, can retrieve any mags that are "in play". They are the ones on his belt, or those on the ground that hopefully still have ammo in them. If he still doesn't have enough ammo to finish the stage, the targets are scored as is. On this classifier stage, the only mags that are "in play" are those on the shelf, and those on the ground, after a reload or premature reload. Taking a mag from the belt to continue shooting this classifier is like some bystander handing you a spare mag on this, or any other stage, so that you can finish it and get all of your hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 24, 2003 Author Share Posted May 24, 2003 Or you could say STOP!, like Vince said. Actually, in the hills of Southern Ohio, many prefer "Whoa, dammit!" but I'm sure that Stop will work just as well..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 For those who are interested, this is how I propose to deal with the issue of a competitor attempting to go for a double moccachino after he's been loaded: 5.7.4 Under no circumstances is competitor be permitted to leave a course of fire in the possession of a loaded firearm (see 10.5.13) 10.5.13 Leaving a course of fire with a loaded firearm and/or having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer. A loaded firearm is defined as a firearm having a live round in the chamber or having a live round in a magazine inserted in the firearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 So the competitor can shoot dry, holster, and run away. The RO is not required to check the gun clear? How about something to the effect that the competitor is to be DQ'ed if, after receiving the command to load, he leaves the course of fire prior to the RO declaring the range is clear? Naturally doing the "If you are finished" bit would also end the stage. If the competitor had been unable to load or start the stage, a reshoot/restart would be given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 See: 8.3.4 "Start Signal" - The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire. If a competitor fails to react to a start signal, for any reason, the Range Officer will confirm that the competitor is ready to attempt the course of fire, and will resume the range commands from "Are You Ready?" and 8.3.8 "Range Is Clear" - Competitors or range officials must not move forward of, or away from, the firing line or final shooting position until this declaration is given by the Range Officer. Once the declaration is made, officials and competitors may move forward to score, patch, reset targets etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bird Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Is this horse dead yet? I would also give the guy an "A" for effort. It seems to me that he didn't gain any advantage and probably tanked the classifier. Picking the fly $h!t out of the pepper is ok but I give this person style points for thinking fast on his feet (awareness, shooting in the moment, and all the things that Brian talks about in his book). The course description has holes that anyone can shoot through, as does any course description. Personally I have seen really good shooters frequently grand bag classifiers all day 'til they get it right. You know the Legit "B" shooters that have the "M" card. So what, it's all a game and clearly this person didn't gain any advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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