Law Enforcement Tactical 3 Gun

[00bullitt]

I for one am very happy to see the NRA pursue these types of matches. I am a cop who happens to have shooting for a hobby. Most cops have other hobbies- golf, running marathons, chasing skirts, whatever... That may be unfortunate but ask yourself how may housebuilders do woodworking for a hobby. When most people get off they want to be distracted from their work life not reminded of it. I am odd I guess. Cops are probably a little better with their firearms than the average gun owner in the United States. USPSA members are much better than average, I think. It is that hobby thing. Thank goodness that cops usually shoot against criminals (who tend to be pretty poor) and not against people who practice as much as your average C-class USPSA shooter.

The NRA will attract officers who have never or would never shoot a regular match and some of them might adopt it as a hobby. The sport will grow and everyone will benefit. I have been told by various people at almost every match I have been to how they are happy to meet a cop who can actually shoot and tells me a story of some cop who came to the local club match and left in shame after being outshot. I submit that those types of stories while meant as compliments to me might do a lot to encourage cops to stay home.

How many USPSA members choose to make fun or remember a new shooter just because they happen to work in law enforcement when they would have taken someone from any other profession who came to a match for the first time under thier wing by offering encouragement or assistance? I think the NRA is trying to offer encouragement and assistance and I applaud them for it.

For those who want to compete in Law Enforcement matches- it is easy to join the club. All you have to do is raise your right hand, agree to do shift work with Tuesday and Wednesday off, for lower middle class income and you are in. It is actually a lot of fun and I for one encourage anyone with a clean background and sense of humor to give it a try.

Are you trying to tell me something here Joe?

Is this like a hint?

[iggyort]

So basically we are ask to be Range Officers and the work force but we can not play with everyone else

The NRA and LE are telling us we are Second Class Citizens

Who needs them !!!

Iggyort

[jbullgpd]

So basically we are ask to be Range Officers and the work force but we can not play with everyone else

The NRA and LE are telling us we are Second Class Citizens

Who needs them !!!

Iggyort

Far from the truth from what I have read. NRA is just trying to get the military and LE more and better ways to get out in train in a competition environment and they are asking the assistance of the guys who know shooting and 3gun. US........ It should be a compliment. I applaud the NRA. I am an LEO and I have been trying for 10 + years to get fellow military and LE to get out and shoot with minor results. The best chance I have ever gotten has been police and fire olympics type events. I think this is great what the NRA is doing and I for one plan on supporting them as much as I can.

[jbullgpd]

Larry,

Is there going to be anything on the website about rules, locations, planned matches. I haven't found anything so far. I would like to make a match if its close to where I'm gonna be.

[mpeltier]

My dad told me when I was a youngster that if I wanted to excel at any sport I should play against those who are better than me. Offering LE only venue’s may attract a few more LE participants but without the competition from the private citizens, who know this sport better than most of them, who are they going to learn from? Is this to be marketed as training or sport. I believe this concept is a good idea except for excluding non LE citizens. The marketing approach taken by the NRA will be the key to its success IMO. I am not LE however I have family, friends and many acquaintances at the local matches who are. Many of them have expressed to me that many of their fellow officers do not know such activities exist, or scheduling prohibits participation. Tailor these matches for the LE officer, market it to them, but open it to all. This would also garner more volunteers to host a match. This type of activity should also be looked upon as an opportunity for LE to rub elbows with citizens and get some positive PR as well.

[DougCarden]

I am hesitant to post on this, because it seems that due to people's biases and past experiences, we always get into class warfare talking about cops and everyone else.

The simple fact is just like the Military, Police have their own subculture, just like many other professions do.

It is hard to get people, in any profession, out of their comfort zone, ever.

Not bringing any of my biases or predujices into it, I think this is an incredible opportunity for 3 gun as a Whole.

The NRA is attempting to get another subculture "hooked" on our sport while thinly veiling it as a training opportunity. We competitors realize that everytime we go to a match and go on the clock we are putting ourselves under stress to do well.

This is an attempt to reach out to another group and get them "stressed out on the clock" and get them to do things better, things we have been doing in competition for years.

It is apparent by reading this thread that many have animous for various groups, including the NRA......So be it.

I am not happy with them most of the time, but I have yet to see an alternative and will continue to support the NRA as best I can. I will also continue to try and get LE to come shoot our games, and I can tell you with a Flyer at the Office about the NRA LE 3gun match, I can almost guarantee I will have volunteers to go and the Boss will give me the ammo....

This is very similar to what USPSA is doing right now......finding groups and marketing our services to them. NRA is doing that for the LE groups, and when they see that USPSA 3 gun has to offer, the ones that are hooked will come, as we are the best game in town, period.

I wonder if some of the people that have posted about the rift between us competitors and the FUDDS and all the other shooters are the same complaining about the "rift" between LE and competitors.....There isnt any difference at all...

Larry, good luck with this, I dont know right now if you are a Saint, or Insane .....but I will try to support you if you have any matches close to me (Midwest).

Respectfully,

Doug Carden......a dad first, a competitor second, then a cop......<Tinfoil/Kevlar beanie being placed on head>

Edited March 9, 2008 by DougCarden

[sbmd]

Guys....understand that this is an opportunity, two fold.

Item One is to provide an opportunity to bring the police officers to the range and shoot! If we look at ourselves today, many of us will find that we have vastly improved since the first time we set foot in competition. Remember the first time you shot a pistol match, I sure do! I am better now than I ever was and I returned to my department that I worked for and relayed what I had discovered and others followed. Even if you only get one person out, it is better than NONE!

Item Two is to provide whatever club we hold these events at the opportunity to recruit new members and participants at their local venues once the NRA event is over. We all know that we could use new people and new ideas to help grow the club and lesson the burden on those who may be suffering from burnout. For once burnout sets in, events cease to exist. Has that happened anywhere?

I understand everyone's point and I read each posting. I too can not compete in these events, look at my first posting. I gave up my badge in order to work for the NRA because I saw an opportunity that promotes competition and can assist the LE community to be better prepared in the unfortunate event they encounter a deadly force situation.

What will the events do for them, reinforce the fundamentals of marksmanship, firearm manipulation, malfunction drills, reinforce the use of cover and provide stress as much as we can with a timer and a score card. This by far is not the total package for a police officer however I feel it will provide them with confidence should they have to resort to that use of their firearm.

As far as civilians competing, please read my other posts. Staff will be able to shoot the matches and I am pushing for staff awards as well. I believe in rewarding you for your hard work, ask anyone of the members of the staff that assist with the Summer Blast. Funny, look at the USPSA Nationals, ask any of the staff, they do not get to shoot the match.

Failure is not an option in my opinion. I am striving for all involved to be a part of something that we have been needing for a longtime, I can not nor can the NRA do this without your help. I will work just as hard putting stages on the ground as the next person, screw gun or hammer in hand....at matches late nights will be my norm, please we will need your help and my hope is that you will be there no matter where to not only help the NRA, but help that local police officer to become better!

As far as the web site...well, that is a priority once I get back from Greenville. As a matter of fact, I will be working on the web site while flying to DFW. So much to work on and so little time. I promise as soon as I get any information, I will pass it along to you here on this forum.

Thanks, Larry

Edited March 9, 2008 by sbmd

[Noah Gladstone]

I think this is a good cause if it improves the skills of our law enforcement. I am willing to help RO if a match is conducted in my area.

[0_down]

All,

To alleviate any confusion, I must let you all know that I am NOT the poster "piper". Those of you who know me, know that I post to numerous forums always under the moniker "0_down".

John Piper

North Texas

CSO NRA/TPC Match 3.15.08

Certified NRA RO, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun Instructor

IDPA CSOI

CSO IDPA TX State Match 07 & 08

CSO CCIDPA

Edited March 9, 2008 by 0_down

[jdMorgan]

Basic information on the first-ever NRA Tactical Police Match, to be held March 15th, 2008 in Greenville Texas, is available on the Collin County IDPA club Web site.

Click on the "Read More" link in the Club News section to get to an expanded news article, including a link to the match application and contact information.

J.D. Morgan

CCIDPA Communications

Edited March 10, 2008 by jdMorgan

[Alaskapopo]

Hello to All,

I just wanted to give you guys a heads up on what is coming. I am leaving law enforcement to work for the NRA in the LE Activities Division as the Program Administrator for Tactical Police Competitions.

Basically it will be 3 gun for LE using their duty gear. It is a hybrid of USPSA and IDPA. Rules remain fairly simple with two divisions, tactical iron and tactical optic.

We will be looking for clubs to host matches throuout the United States. We invision holding 8 regional matches in various parts of the US and then conclude with the Nationals.

Stay tuned for more to come on this topic. We have our first match scheduled for 15 March in Greenville, TX.

You can contact me via the Enos Forum and once I get settled into the office I will provide my contact information.

Take care,

Larry Houck

TPC

I am super interested. This sounds awsome.

Pat

[Sailor]

Collin County IDPA www.ccidpa.org agreed to host the very 1st NRA Tactical Police Competition upon the request of one of our members. He is a local Police Officer, Police Firearms Instructor, IDPA ESP MA, and good friend. Collin County IDPA was elated to have this opportunity to help further the shooting skills of our local Police Officers. He asked us because of our club's organizational skills backed up by the past record of highly successful IDPA sanctioned matches Collin County IDPA has produced. Collin County IDPA hosted the 2005/2006 North Texas Regional matches, the 2007 Texas State IDPA Championship and before this the 1998, 1999, and 2000 State Matches. This coming June 7th, Collin County IDPA will be hosting the 2008 Texas State IDPA Championship where 200 shooters will be throwing lead downrange for magnificent trophies and an unbelievable prize table. Did I mention the USPSA club we started??? All that said, we have Police Officers coming from as far away as San Francisco to participate. So much for the plug.............We realize that in helping the NRA organize this match that we are helping Police Officers shoot more and possibly begin to enjoy shooting. If we can provide a venue where Police Officers in general begin to look at shooting as something that can be fun instead of "practice," or worse yet "work," and then have a place for them to further this concept every weekend, we have accomplished the goal.

Folks....this is about Police Officers, whether local, county, or federal it IS about them.

We civilians choose to learn to shoot for whatever reason....we don't have to carry a gun (although if you're smart you do), Police Officers do. Police Officers train differently than civilians. Civilians practice/play at IDPA/USPSA and maybe train defensively at one of the many shooting schools that are cropping up across the country. Many of us are good shooters....some of us are really great shooters...but we still don't train the same, Police Officers do train the same........This is why the Collin County IDPA members, that are willingly and cheerfully working this match knowing they have -0- opportunity for the substantial prize table reserved for the benefit of the Police Officers, as it should be, will shoot this match the day before. Match day will be devoted to serving those that serve us.

Cody Ray

President, Collin County IDPA

Edited March 10, 2008 by Sailor

[BPiatt]

This is long overdue... Let me know if I can help Larry.

Bruce Piatt

[J-Ho]

So basically we are ask to be Range Officers and the work force but we can not play with everyone else

The NRA and LE are telling us we are Second Class Citizens

Who needs them !!!

Iggyort

Ya I hate that. Like when the Army Marksmanship Unit hosts a match like FT. Benning 3 gun. They have a bunch of no name schlubs acting as staff. I hear there was even some guy named "Michelle" or some thing. That's how much they care about us. They just make guys who probably can't even shoot help out.

(without this disclaimer, someone will say "Are you serious?" or "You dumbass, you spelled Max's name wrong!" Ya I know. If you didn't pick up the sarcasm, now is the time. )

and no I didn't shoot Ft. Benning. Maybe next year. From what I hear though, those guys put on a hell of a good match for us 'second class citizens'.

[stinger1]

Hello Larry and congratulations to you in the new position. I'm the contact person here for the Greenville match and am very grateful that the NRA has decided to have the first official match here in North Texas for the law enforcement community. I can't speak for anyone else, but the officers I work with have expressed their excitement about the upcoming match and meeting the other participants. In my opinion there is not a better club than CCIDA to sponsor this match and the continued support from the CCIDPA members. This group did not sit aside waiting for things to happen; nor ask how it would benefit them they worked as a team to make it happen. My hat goes off to the 30+ members that are helping out for the match. I want to take this opportunity to thank everyone for volunteering his or her time and effort in preparation for this upcoming match, it is sure to be GREAT!

Larry, this is a good cause and I think…. NO! I know the LE/Military world both would benefit from the IDPA/USPSA shooting sports.

Ting

P.S. please say hello to HS & ML for me, and see ya this weekend.

[rkgsmith]

Larry , congrats on taking over the job, I know you'll get it done right. I'm looking forward to shooting in one of these matches. The NRA is looking in the right direction with 3gun that's for sure. As for helping at matches, anybody who helps will be greatly appreciated.

[Brazos]

As the presient of our local USPSA club and an active 3 Gunner, I think this is an excellent concept. I can see tremendous potential for this to bring new folks and a new attitude from the LE community to the shooting sports as a whole.

I will agree that enticing LE out to shoot is one of the most difficult and challenging aspects of running a club. That said, I think offering them a venue to compete where they are comfortable is great idea.

If you have a match in Texas I will volunteer my time as RO or staff.

B

[sslav]

As a member of a club I would have an issue with that club closing the range for general use by its members to hold a match that excludes its members from participation. As someone who volunteers his time at matches, I see no incentive to spend time and effort on a match that I can not shoot. As a member of NRA I have an issue with the organization using a portion of my membership dues to train LEOs which is something I already pay taxes for.

LEOs receive whatever training their departments see fit to give them. If that is inadequate - police unions should address that. Why are we expending time effort and money to drag LEOs into improving the skills which they themselves do not feel that they need to improve? Any LEO that feels like bettering his firearms skills has the opportunity to do so using the same venues that the rest of us can and do use. And some LEOs do so. But given the tiny participation of LEOs in competitive shooting disciplines - the vast majority of them do not feel like they need to improve. And with good reason - statistically most of them will never need to actually fire their guns in a life or death situation.

I feel that NRA's USPSA's and local club resources are better spent in promoting shooting sports amongst those who may be interested in them.

Slav

Edited March 12, 2008 by sslav

[LChico]

As a member of a club I would have an issue with that club closing the range for general use by its members to hold a match that excludes its members from participation. As someone who volunteers his time at matches, I see no incentive to spend time and effort on a match that I can not shoot. As a member of NRA I have an issue with the organization using a portion of my membership dues to train LEOs which is something I already pay taxes for.

LEOs receive whatever training their departments see fit to give them. If that is inadequate - police unions should address that. Why are we expending time effort and money to drag LEOs into improving the skills which they themselves do not feel that they need to improve? Any LEO that feels like bettering his firearms skills has the opportunity to do so using the same venues that the rest of us can and do use. And some LEOs do so. But given the tiny participation of LEOs in competitive shooting disciplines - the vast majority of them do not feel like they need to improve. And with good reason - statistically most of them will never need to actually fire their guns in a life or death situation.

I feel that NRA's USPSA's and local club resources are better spent in promoting shooting sports amongst those who may be interested in them.

Slav

I am not going to address the LEO training issue, because there are numerous posts on both sides of that issue already.

I am a member of a club that regularly closes the range for general use by it's members to hold a match that excludes it's members from participation: We have USPSA Level 2 matches that exclude anyone without a USPSA membership. With over 700 members in the club & only about 50 USPSA members, we are excluding a significant portion. I am excluded whenever IDPA & NRA 2700 pistol hold their state championship matches. All the men are excluded when we hold Ladies Camps or 'Women Only' events (2 times in the last 12 months). I am not eligible to participate in any of our junior program matches. Numerous small law enforcement departments and security forces in our city are "corporate" club members. They use the range for practice and for qualification tests for the officers (as required by our state laws). I am not welcome to join their practice or training sessions.

Fortunately, I am a member of a club with the 'mission' of promoting shooting competition (I'm actually a club officer and member of the executive board). We firmly believe that whenever someone shows up on the range and shoots safely, it's a good thing. Our local club likes to use it's resources to promoting shooting competition, and not just among those who already compete in various shooting disciplines. And this is a much better way for the NRA to use it's resources than to continue to send me membership renewal notices (since I have been a life member for 15 years ).

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Secretary

Mid Carolina Rifle Club

Columbia SC

[Tapper]

I think this is a fantastic idea, and an opportunity for those of us in the competitive shooting community to do something more positive than to make jokes about the shooting abilities of LEO's.

It might just work too, if the participants go into it with the desire to make it work - both during the first matches, and long term. The NRA will have to find a solid middle ground between the interests of the participants, the policies of their departments, and the interests of the local Clubs. They have to make it possible and reasonably easy for a club to host the match. Large beauracracies like the NRA, have a tendency to want to impose a lot of conditions that make these things tough to pull off at the club level without spending a bunch of money and time. The words "unfunded mandate" sure come to mind. Obviously, some things need to be done for safety, and uniformity between matches, but at the same time, if these matches place too much stress of a clubs facilities and budget - this program will die before it starts. The club chosen to inaugurate this thing has put on thousands of matches, including state and regionals. The NRA would do well to listen carefully to them in this process.

The Club members, will have to have their collective act together, and adopt a very professional and friendly attitude towards the LEOs that show up. The club chosen for the first match, was probably a pretty good choice.

[00bullitt]

Linda...........since most of the negative comments are being directed at civilians being restricted to compete.......I think you have a very valid point and make a good comparison.

Whiskey1 said it pretty good too-"For those who want to compete in Law Enforcement matches- it is easy to join the club. All you have to do is raise your right hand, agree to do shift work with Tuesday and Wednesday off, for lower middle class income and you are in. It is actually a lot of fun and I for one encourage anyone with a clean background and sense of humor to give it a try."

I for one support Larry and the NRA and feel confident this will not do anything but strengthen the shooting support and give the NRA more validity if and when the Dems get in office.

Also.....PPC has sorta gone the way of the dinosaur. Its good that the NRA is trying to replace it or bring new blood into the sport with the introduction of 3 gun.......the most fun you can have with your clothes on and the lights on. I'm sure Larry will figure out how to bring it all together for the annual Civilian versus LE match at the end of the year? Maybe even Fort Benning style?

GOOD LUCK LARRY!!!! NRA chose a great candidate for the position.

[Jim Norman]

I see both sides of this. I like the idea of getting more LEO out so that they see that we are NOT THE ENEMY. I think that allowing the staff to shoot is good, especially if there is a staff award(s).

I also see that there can be people that feel that closing the range to members is not good. In all cases except Ladies day, generally anyone that wants to shoot a match can, IF they have joined whatever orgainization is the governing body AND they fulfill the requirements AND they sign up early enough.

Pretty much anyone that wants any to shoot any match can. Just join IDPA, USPSA, NRA. get a basic classification, send in your money and come on out. This match is arguably different. I am 55yo and supposedly gainfully employed fulltime. I am not about to go down to my local PD and "join up" They won't accept me, too old, not an academy grad, etc. So there is a difference.

Would I work such a match? Yes, I have done this in the past when our home club hosted the US Service academy matches. We built the match, and we RO'd. We did not even get to actually shoot the match. We may have shot the stage we were ROing.

So, where do I stand? I would probably work the match if it were nearby AND I wasn't already booked up. If the club was not getting a reasonable fee for the range use, I would not expect the club to make the range available.

I think getting more LEO better trained in the use of their tool of last resort might not be a bad idea. It might go a long way to not having officeres fire 50-60 shoots at a suspect and only scoring 3 hits. It might even send a message to the "other side" that if you mess with a cop, you are more than likely going to lose sionce he really is well trained. In other words, the myth will be the reality.

Jim

[maduce]

I think this is a great idea, so much that if you need a further place to hold a match I will donate my range for the event. Yes cops are a hard sell in the training department. In the 28 years I was a Police Officer, not once did we have any State mandated training in the three things that get you killed, can’t shoot, can’t drive and can’t think outside the box. We had tons of cultural diversity and racial sensitivity as well as the newest thoughts on Community Policing, which all turned out to be crap.

Yes bottom line “COPS”, civilian or other wise don’t like mixing and having their type A personalities shown up. Nor do they like to listen to a million what if, how about or how come as to what happened to them by some Police officer 10 years ago. Funny thing, when I was a plumber, no one wanted to talk about there clogged up crapped when I went to a party. And people wonder why they have the Blue line.

I say if this venue gets them shooting it’s a good thing. The skill they develop might save a family member our keep my tax dollars from going to litigations. Especially since I am a civilian now….

[rangerhughes]

Great idea and long overdue... Let me know if I can help, Rick Porter and myself live in the Charlotte NC area.

[Sailor]

As the presient of our local USPSA club and an active 3 Gunner, I think this is an excellent concept. I can see tremendous potential for this to bring new folks and a new attitude from the LE community to the shooting sports as a whole.

I will agree that enticing LE out to shoot is one of the most difficult and challenging aspects of running a club. That said, I think offering them a venue to compete where they are comfortable is great idea.

If you have a match in Texas I will volunteer my time as RO or staff.

B

The 1st NRA Tactical Police Competition match is this weekend, in Greenville, TEXAS at Jacob's Plain Gun Club just 40 miles or so east of Dallas.

You are certainly welcome to come watch or send me your info through our web site at www.ccidpa.org and I'll keep it for the next one we host.

Cody

Edited March 13, 2008 by Sailor