lead poisoning

[AWLAZS]

MY department is concerned about lead poisoning when we shoot at the outdoor range once a year with JHP and FMJ ammo.

They want to look into making it safer for the officers to shoot and want to follow the recommendations in the second link.

Any LEO's out there with lead precautions in place? How about the military?

Thanks

http://oaklandnet.com/government/PolicePub.../IB-1Apr99.pdfP

http://www.utexas.edu/safety/ehs/msds/lead.html

[bigsaxdog]

excellent post!!! just had a blood test in november, was 21mcg/dc and the doctor was kinda freaked, didn't really know what it meant. thought it was real high, but was thinking of children's levels, because of the mattel toy scare. have looked for info, but haven't found much. this is a great article, will send for the bibliography. thanks alot.....dave moss

[Dave Gundry]

The only indoor ranges I've been to have some serious air circulation/evacuation equipment for this purpose. I still wouldn't spend too much time in one due to the noise levels though.

Heck, I'm lucky if the winds are less than 10-15mph where I shoot outside - so I'm not terribly worried about it. That, and I shoot FMJ's for now, so compared to a fair amount of folks, I should be doing just fine.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Read THIS from the Hate Forum

My lead levels were 19 in 2006, 35 4 weeks ago and I have been able to get them down to 29 currently and still working on it.

Edit to add:

Any department concerned should change their ammo to International Cartridge or another lead free ammo source. Lead free bullets and primers.

Edited March 1, 2008 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[Rocket35]

I have decided to stay out of the indoor shooting facilities, partially do to this concern. I suck at shooting indoors anyway!

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

It's funny, reading the second article, of the 18 symptoms I had

2. Fatigue. This can become profound and incapacitating.

3. Irritability and aggressiveness.

5. Insomnia. (Which greatly complicates the fatigue.)

7. Headaches.

11. Digestive difficulties and abdominal pains.

13. Joint pains, particularly in the joints of the long bones, like the wrists.

As far as #4 goes, I actually had the exact opposite which was fine with me Not so with SWMBO

[Patrick Sweeney]

Worrying about lead exposure at an outdoor range is like worrying about your chances of being hit by a falling satellite. Unless you eat the dirt off the range floor, you need only the simplest of precautions;

Wash your hands after shooting. Ignore the idiotic FBI prescription of washing only with cold water "so your pores won't open and allow lead into your system." Provide lots of hot water, lots of soap, and make every one wash. Every one. Wash your hands and your face. Wash after shooting, wash after picking up brass, wash after cleaning weapons but before leaving the range.

Prohibit smoking and eating at the range. Ingesting lead, or inhaling vaporized lead off of cigarettes is a faster way to ingest lead by an order of magnitude or two.

An additional step:

If you have full-time range officers, invest in a shower room and washing machine. They (and only they need to) should shower at the end of the day, change and launder their range clothes in the departmental machine. That way they aren't taking lead home and contaminating their homes and kids. The rest of the officers need not go that far, as the annual (or whatever) exposure they'll get won't be a big deal. But if the department really wants to get anal, they can.

Any range classroom should be made with a linoleum/tile floor, and wet-mopped at least weekly. You'll track lead-dirt into the classroom, and carpet simply turns it into airborne lead dust.

If the department objects, on the (all too typical) grounds that it is "too expensive" to provide running water at the range, calculate the cost of regular ammo with lead-free, and show how quickly the cost will be recovered by not going lead-free.

Indoors is an entire new situation, and one that is far more expensive.

I've personally fired over a million rounds, been on ranges for 40+ years and seen/supervised a couple of million more. My lead tests (annual, the State requires it) bounce between 6 to 8 mg/Dl, which is basically the "background" level of an adult my age.

Lead can be a problem, but it isn't plutonium or kryptonite.

[AWLAZS]

Nice post Patrick. We only shoot around 2-3 hundred rounds a year. All of it is outside and it usually rains.

[warpspeed]

Every blood test I have I ask for a lead screen. All in the last 5 years have come back normal ( single digit ).

I figure it is like getting my cholesterol checked.

[GlockSpeed31]

Years ago, I worked at an Indoor range as a Assist. Mgr and a Beginners Safety Instructor (coach). I was in the range for about 20 hours a week either training, practicing or shooting USPSA matches. After a while, I starting having a lot of the above mentioned symptoms. Went to the Dr, had a lead level check and it came back at a 61!!

I was started on several different methods of treatment right away. My Dr informed me to find a new job right away, which I did within a few weeks. To this day, if I am in an indoor range for any length of time, I start having some breathing problems and the headaches start up.

When people mention "Only wash your hands with cold water and soap", what they forget is to follow up with "then wash with hot, soapy water". You want to wash away the majority of the lead residue with the cold water so your pores do not open up when the majority of the lead residue is still on your hands. Also, what a lot of us forget to do is when you get home from shooting and before retiring to bed, take a shower. Get the small traces of residue off of your body before climbing into bed. You don't want to be sleeping in lead for a few days or however long it is before you change your linens.

[SA Friday]

Tha air force has gone to non-toxic ammo, no lead in the bullet or the primer for training (Winchester manufactured). I have my lead levels checked every year or two. It's the reloading that exposes us more than the shooting.

[open17]

I reload and shoot 20,000+ per year, and spend quite a bit of time ROing other shooters.

All outdoors. Last years physical, lead level 7.

[chp5]

Worrying about lead exposure at an outdoor range is like worrying about your chances of being hit by a falling satellite. Unless you eat the dirt off the range floor, you need only the simplest of precautions

Gotta disagree with you Patrick. 4-5 years back I used to practice at an indoor range and was very careful. I did not shoot lead bullets and my blood levels were 29. I stopped shooting inside and it went down within a few months.

I shot with some training officers three years ago at the Ft. Benning 3G. All of them were careful and had very high levels.

[BSeevers]

You don't want to be sleeping in lead for a few days or however long it is before you change your linens.

You are supposed to change linens??

[Jaxshooter]

I was just tested for lead during my last physical. I have been shooting and loading for over 30 years. Most of the reloading has been shotguns wihch exposes you to lead more than metallic cartridge reloading. This is due to the hulls being dirty and shot loose in a bag that is poured into the loader. My test came back with normal levels, single digit. I have never used a mask , gloves etc. I did not eat , smoke or drink anything without washing my hands and arms first. I also shoot every week. I would not worry about lead exposure on an outdoor range.

[Patrick Sweeney]

chp5, outdoors, I said outdoors.

Indoors is a whole other ball of wax.

[Warning, Science Content!]

First, you do not absorb lead "through your pores." The cooling system known as your perspiration is a one-way system. Water (and various dissolved chemicals) goes out, stuff doesn't come in. That is why technical literature describes the skin to medical students as a "semi-permeable membrane." One of the desired substances in the medical community for decades (or a century-plus, by some) is a solvent that will go through the skin and deliver medicine. For a while, there was even a solvent that people thought had magical properties of its own.

However, the simple basics of chemistry finally reared their ugly heads. Any solvent that does go through the skin is bad for you (acetone, other industrials) and none that do take anything with them. I imagine that some crusty old firearms instructor decades ago came up with that, and it has been with us ever since.

"If the lead doesn't get in through your pores, then how is it people get lead?" you ask. Simple, it is on their hands. They don't wash, they eat, drink, smoke, and after wiping their faces they lick their lips. All routes for ingesting lead. Or, they follow the (I'm trying to be civil here) moronic advice to wash in cold water. We've all washed out hands in cold water, so we know how it goes. You give the process the least water, scrubbing and time you can get away with. Wash with warm water, and do it like surgeons: 30 seconds at an absolute minimum, a full minute is better. Scrub thoroughly.

Another stupid bit of advice: Don't pick up brass in your hat, and dump it into boxes. The lead (supposedly) goes right into your scalp, and straight to the brain.

Now, if the skin is a semi-permeable membrane, then compared to it the blood-brain barrier is a Gunnery Sergeant greeting his 16 year old daughter's date at the front door. The B-B barrier is so difficult to penetrate that Doctors have a tough time getting medicines into your brain. Lead doesn't have a chance.

Don't put brass in your hat, but not because of what someone once told you on a police range. Don't do it because no-one ever washes a hat, and once the lead particles are in your hair you'll wipe your head, and viola, we're back to the old ingesting lead thing.

You get lead by breathing fine particles of it. By ingesting it off of your hands, in food, drinks, smoking, etc.

Indoor ranges are an order of magnitude worse because the ventilation isn't as good as the outdoors, and the floor, walls and ceiling all retain particulates. Which then come off as dust every time you shoot.

Outdoors, it simply falls to the ground, quickly oxidizes, and is relatively inert.

As for the Air Force, they do as they are told. Do not use their actions as indications of what you should do. If the proper sub-committee told them "guns are icky, you have to use rubber bullets" they'd get busy asking for quotes for rubber bullets. Heck, the services didn't even regularly use hearing protection until recently.

[SA Friday]

As for the Air Force, they do as they are told. Do not use their actions as indications of what you should do. If the proper sub-committee told them "guns are icky, you have to use rubber bullets" they'd get busy asking for quotes for rubber bullets. Heck, the services didn't even regularly use hearing protection until recently.

WOW, you must be OLD if 'recently' is over 20 years. I've been in the AF for 19 1/2 years, and hearing protection has always been mandatory on the firing range and on the flight line. The AF also started it's conversion to non-toxic frangible ammo 8 years ago, and has been mandatory for CONUS ranges years before considered fashionable. There have been just too many CATM instructors with lead levels in the 50+ range. Most LE and military are OK at their normal qual and proficiency firing, but it's the instructors that take the huge hit. IMO, different ammo to qual vs. shooting the ammo you carry is not the optimal training scenario, but then again, it lessens OSHA and EPA issues a lot and is still a fair facsimile. Not everything the AF does is entirely without merit.

[bigsaxdog]

great thread, keep this going......have learned some things already. most medical types i have talked to are clueless, have never seen this stuff. the shooters that have been affected have the best info......thanks alot, dave moss

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

great thread, keep this going......have learned some things already. most medical types i have talked to are clueless, have never seen this stuff. the shooters that have been affected have the best info......thanks alot, dave moss

It's funny you say that. My doc was shocked when I hit 35 this year on my lead test. I knew something was out of whack because of my constant headaches. I went two months with headaches that could not be stopped by Motrin or any other normal means. The only thing that killed them even temporarily was Acupuncture treatments.

There was a guy on other forums years ago who went by Jon Paul. He had a lot to do with Star reloading presses. He had a lot of info.

My two exposures to lead are my trade which I have just about eliminated all lead I use, and indoor 22LR Gallery shooting. I shoot indoors 6 to 8 hours a week during the winter in a range that has poor ventilation. (We have appropriated the money for improvements). I now wear a respirator rated for lead fumes. From what I have been able to learn, the greatest source of contamination is from breathing NOT from ingestion. The lead dust on your skin, hair, clothes etc is absorbed by breathing it in.

One necessary piece on equipment in my range bags is Saline nose spray. Spray before you shoot to moisten the nasal hairs so they collect more dust. Douche after you shoot and expel the collected dust.

As far as washing hats, Patrick, mine go into the dishwasher on a holder every couple weeks. makes them look like new

Edit to add link for cap holder http://www.addedtouchstore.com/prodinfo.as...CFT00FQodi2aExQ

Edited March 2, 2008 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[GlockSpeed31]

First, you do not absorb lead "through your pores." The cooling system known as your perspiration is a one-way system. Water (and various dissolved chemicals) goes out, stuff doesn't come in. That is why technical literature describes the skin to medical students as a "semi-permeable membrane." One of the desired substances in the medical community for decades (or a century-plus, by some) is a solvent that will go through the skin and deliver medicine. For a while, there was even a solvent that people thought had magical properties of its own.

However, the simple basics of chemistry finally reared their ugly heads. Any solvent that does go through the skin is bad for you (acetone, other industrials) and none that do take anything with them. I imagine that some crusty old firearms instructor decades ago came up with that, and it has been with us ever since.

"If the lead doesn't get in through your pores, then how is it people get lead?" you ask. Simple, it is on their hands. They don't wash, they eat, drink, smoke, and after wiping their faces they lick their lips. All routes for ingesting lead. Or, they follow the (I'm trying to be civil here) moronic advice to wash in cold water. We've all washed out hands in cold water, so we know how it goes. You give the process the least water, scrubbing and time you can get away with. Wash with warm water, and do it like surgeons: 30 seconds at an absolute minimum, a full minute is better. Scrub thoroughly.

Patrick S.

You say that the skin is semi-permeable membrane. What about all the transdermal (sp?) patches out on the market to help with weight loss, quit smoking and a few other issues? Are these items not effective or did I mis-read your post?

As far as washing hats, Patrick, mine go into the dishwasher on a holder every couple weeks. makes them look like new

Edit to add link for cap holder http://www.addedtouchstore.com/prodinfo.as...CFT00FQodi2aExQ

R_G_S,

So, your putting your hat that you wear shooting (with lead residue) into your dishwasher?? Seems to me that you are introducing lead into your eating & drinking again.

Thanks to everyones posting on this important subject that is often overlooked or just plainly not known about.

[Nik Habicht]

First, you do not absorb lead "through your pores." The cooling system known as your perspiration is a one-way system. Water (and various dissolved chemicals) goes out, stuff doesn't come in. That is why technical literature describes the skin to medical students as a "semi-permeable membrane." One of the desired substances in the medical community for decades (or a century-plus, by some) is a solvent that will go through the skin and deliver medicine. For a while, there was even a solvent that people thought had magical properties of its own.

Patrick S.

You say that the skin is semi-permeable membrane. What about all the transdermal (sp?) patches out on the market to help with weight loss, quit smoking and a few other issues? Are these items not effective or did I mis-read your post?

A quick google search revealed this:

Some pharmaceuticals must be combined with substances, such as alcohol within the patch to increase their ability to penetrate the skin in order to be used in a transdermal patch. The molecules of the medication must be small enough to pass through the skin.

Additionally, from my pharmacology book --- medications administered by this route bypass the digestive enzymes of the gastric tract and the first pass effect in the liver --- where many drugs are broken down.....

[LPatterson]

As for the Air Force, they do as they are told. Do not use their actions as indications of what you should do. If the proper sub-committee told them "guns are icky, you have to use rubber bullets" they'd get busy asking for quotes for rubber bullets. Heck, the services didn't even regularly use hearing protection until recently.

WOW, you must be OLD if 'recently' is over 20 years. I've been in the AF for 19 1/2 years, and hearing protection has always been mandatory on the firing range and on the flight line. The AF also started it's conversion to non-toxic frangible ammo 8 years ago, and has been mandatory for CONUS ranges years before considered fashionable. There have been just too many CATM instructors with lead levels in the 50+ range. Most LE and military are OK at their normal qual and proficiency firing, but it's the instructors that take the huge hit. IMO, different ammo to qual vs. shooting the ammo you carry is not the optimal training scenario, but then again, it lessens OSHA and EPA issues a lot and is still a fair facsimile. Not everything the AF does is entirely without merit.

It's not that Patrick is old , it's that you're just a young pup. In the 60's & 70's it was common for the AF to send people to the range and not mention hearing protection. I don't know about the real Air Force back then but 100 man radar squadron's had a security force made up of selected people who knew which end of a carbine the bullet came out of. In '66 for the first trip to SEA the AF was shipping people over without weapons training but that had changed when I went back in '73. Seems that sky cops alone could not defend an airforce base. But other than my trips to SEA, I had more than 20 years in before I was ever stationed on an Air Force base (except for tech schools) and a First Sergeant doesn't need much formal weapons practice.

[carinab]

This thread has my tale of woe with lead poisoning....I linked to it because the ZPP test in combination with the serum lead test will give you a better picture of your lead toxicity. There's also info about treatments. According to the toxicologist I had to visit, calcium supplementation before any shooting/reloading should minimize lead absorption. Chelated supplements will also help.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

As far as washing hats, Patrick, mine go into the dishwasher on a holder every couple weeks. makes them look like new

Edit to add link for cap holder http://www.addedtouchstore.com/prodinfo.as...CFT00FQodi2aExQ

R_G_S,

So, your putting your hat that you wear shooting (with lead residue) into your dishwasher?? Seems to me that you are introducing lead into your eating & drinking again.

Thanks to everyones posting on this important subject that is often overlooked or just plainly not known about.

I thought the same at first but I don't wash the hats with dishes and the sani cycle water temp takes care of it all. It is actually better than using the clothes washer due to the water temp.

As far as treating high lead levels, I am having good results using heavy metal Cleanse It is chelating vitamins with binding agents so it is expelled with your waste. In three weeks I went from 35 to 29 and changed nothing else.

edit to add: Vitamin "C" is a big factor in getting lead levels down. The down side is too much vitamin "C" can cause Kidney stones.

Edited March 2, 2008 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[Patrick Sweeney]

Yea, I'm old. When I started shooting, nobody, I mean nobody, used hearing protection except my Dad any anyone on the range with him.

My point was not that the Air Force is out-of-touch, but that a lot of what they do, use and reject are things selected for them. Shooting without hearing protection is bad. Just a moment's thought will tell you that. You think a bunch of Soldiers, Airmen, Marines or swabbies are going to tell the senior NCO "You don't have hearing protection, I'm not shooting."? After the boot was extracted from their butt, they'd shoot.

So the proclamation "The Army/Navy/Air Force/SEALS do it" is an item only of intellectual curiosity.

As for semi-permeable, that's what it is. Yes, you can drive particular (very few) chemical compounds through the skin, but they have to be both very small and not chemically reactive to the skin itself. Lead particulates (and no matter how fine you blast the particle sizes to, they are particulates) are a couple of orders of magnitude too large to go through the skin. Think: pushing boulders through a chain-link fence.

And the problems with many, many solvents is that, as Nik points out, the first place they go is the liver. Acetone, Tri-chlor, Benzene, they do penetrate the skin, and they then go and apply their jackboots to your liver.

Slap me silly and call me Sally, I never heard of hat-holders. I just get free new ones from the manufacturers, so I can better shill their products.