New? and conflicted

[Forester]

I think this post is my second on this forum, the first being something over in gear and accessories about a chronograph, so go easy on a new guy. I have been lurking here for ages, feeling mostly like with the talent and expertise here I did not have much to add. I have done the homework, read Mr. Enos's book, following Kirsch's dryfire drills and in all honesty doing as much thinking about my shooting as the 10 or 12 hours a week (plus matches) that I do practicing. Now I have a question I can't quite seem to get worked out.

I have been shooting in some shape or form since I could walk, but only competitively for about 2 and a half years. I started shooting IDPA because I could shoot equipment I already owned. Late last year I gave USPSA a try because I was mad at some of the nonsensical rules in IDPA. I shot 4 matches last year in single stack and wound up low C class when single stack was made an official division. I found out that although game planning for a stage and reloads are two things I enjoy and tend to be good at, the constant reloads in SS made a lot of stages annoying.

This year I switched to a CR speed holster and 10rd mags and I am having a load of fun in L-10. I attached a pic or two of the gun I am shooting which started life as a Les Baer but after ~50,000rds I had rebuilt and setup to my liking. The gun is still CDP legal for IDPA (though the "gamer" comments never cease ) and has, with more than a few hours of live and dry fire allowed me to make a high B level percentage this year. My match standings in local matches seem to fit well with my classifiers so far. I shoot mostly in Virginia and North Carolina. My major match shedule for the year is, SC sectional, VA-MD sectional, NC Sectional, Carolina Cup(IDPA)., possibly Summer Blast. Also VA and NC state IDPA. That goes along with a couple or 3 local matches a month (Sir Walter, Rowan County, Roanoke, Statesville)

My goal for the year is to make A class by the end of this year, and M by the end of next years season (roughly Octoberish around here).

All that is a background to my current question. Should I switch to limited at the end of this year? I am having a lot of fun in L-10 but it seems to me the top dawgs are all in the limited game. It is totally beyond my current level, and maybe I should not think this way but in 3 years I want to be a competitive GM. Unreasonable? maybe, but thats where I am. I guess my question is thus, should I go for a limited gun towards the end of this season (about the earliest I can afford to build what I would want) or stick with L-10 and see where it can take me?

I have a small amount of sponsorship likely lined up beginning the end of this year, and since the 'smith building my gun will be on the same team I can get the work done fairly reasonably. Should I switch from a gun and division I enjoy to play what seem to be the "big boy's game" in Limited or stick with what I am good at and seem to be moving along well in?

What say you and why?

Edited to add: Pictures, and; I am on the same name over on 1911forum and cast boolits forum (I cast boolits for my practice ammo and for a few rifles I play with sometimes)

Edited February 26, 2008 by Forester

[BrianATL]

Shoot what you like, I wouldn't worry about what others are shooting

[Merlin Orr]

There are big boys playing in every division. If you want to do something different...do so..but do not think for a minute there is not a high level of competition in Single Stack or L10.

My .02.

Nice gun too. And a great job at not being a bandwidth hog with the photos.

Edited February 26, 2008 by Merlin Orr

[j1b]

I'd contend that any skill level achieved with your current set up could easily and quickly be transfered to nearly any division you decided to end up in.

Yes, limited is a more competitive division. The "talent pool" is probably deeper there in most matches than Lim-10 or single stack. That said, in nearly any division there are some pretty salty shooters.

So it's a function of personal choice. If you really want to shoot limited, then do it. Get that mental component out of it and welcome (with open arms) the deep pool of shooters that comes with it. It may be humbling at times, but you'll get there.

Or, stick with what you've got and buy ammo. Get the skills you want and need. Then you can jump into limited. What you'll find is that the skill set needed to excel in lim-10 is nearly identical to limited. Your stage analysis abilities will be much improved, and your confidence after the first few shots will be fine.

You're golden which ever way you go.

J

[Forester]

I'd contend that any skill level achieved with your current set up could easily and quickly be transfered to nearly any division you decided to end up in.

Yes, limited is a more competitive division. The "talent pool" is probably deeper there in most matches than Lim-10 or single stack. That said, in nearly any division there are some pretty salty shooters.

So it's a function of personal choice. If you really want to shoot limited, then do it. Get that mental component out of it and welcome (with open arms) the deep pool of shooters that comes with it. It may be humbling at times, but you'll get there.

Or, stick with what you've got and buy ammo. Get the skills you want and need. Then you can jump into limited. What you'll find is that the skill set needed to excel in lim-10 is nearly identical to limited. Your stage analysis abilities will be much improved, and your confidence after the first few shots will be fine.

You're golden which ever way you go.

J

Would I be wrong in thinking that Limited is more of a shooting skills (transitions, splits) oriented game and L-10 seems to emphasize game planning and reloads more? Obviously movement, in and out of shooting positions is critical in all divisions. I guess if I want to be competitive on a top level there is no less important aspect of my game?

..

Heres a rough training schedule as of right now:

Dryfire, 5 days a week, 1.5hrs a day+/- I tend to focus on fundamentals, SHO/WHO, Draws, Reloads, transitions.

Live fire, 1 day a week, 300rds+/- working on whatever I see as my biggest current weakness (so many to choose from!!). Right now I see that as transitions to a small degree and movement in and out of positions. I am considering using monthly IDPA matches as extended practice on SHO/WHO practice as well.

Everything I do is variable, if I am having a good day I might extend live fire to as much as 500rds (D@#! ammo costs!) if I am having a good night I might dry fire for an extra hour...One thing I am fortunate for, My job is flexible and as long as the job gets done it does not matter what/when I work, no one looking over my shoulder. I am able to dry and live fire practice during the day and have access to a free private range to shoot on.

[Chris Keen]

Oh no ................. it's my evil twin!

Nice gun by the way, and welcome to the most fun you can have with your clothes on (USPSA shooting that is).

Edited February 26, 2008 by CHRIS KEEN

[ChuckS]

Let's look at last year's national championships

L-10:

Place Name No. USPSA Class Division PF Lady For Age Match Pts Match %

1 Robert Leatham 139 L684 GM Limited 10 Major No No 1642.2458 100.00%

2 Ted Puente 250 TY42094 GM Limited 10 Major No No 1579.6977 96.19%

3 Taran Butler 15 L2354 GM Limited 10 Major No No 1579.1105 96.16%

4 Travis Tomasie 75 L1973 M Limited 10 Major No No 1575.4798 95.93%

5 Dave Sevigny 11 TY42164 GM Limited 10 Major No No 1560.1684 95.00%

6 Emanuel Bragg 270 L2476 M Limited 10 Major No No 1559.3373 94.95%

7 Michael Seeklander 94 TY30288 U Limited 10 Major No No 1502.8129 91.51%

8 Michael Burrell 194 TYF42936 GM Limited 10 Major No Yes 1499.3134 91.30%

9 Angus Hobdell 36 L2546 U Limited 10 Major No No 1490.9512 90.79%

10 Phil Strader Jr 51 FY31992 GM Limited 10 Major No No 1446.3973 88.07%

Limited:

Place Name No. USPSA Class Division PF Lady For Age Match Pts Match %

1 Robert Leatham 241 L684 GM Limited Major No No 1728.1370 100.00%

2 Travis Tomasie 12 L1973 GM Limited Major No No 1717.1018 99.36%

3 Chris Tilley 37 TY38861 GM Limited Major No No 1681.4843 97.30%

4 Phil Strader Jr. 25 FY31992 GM Limited Major No No 1674.4455 96.89%

5 Ted Puente 108 TY42094 GM Limited Major No No 1658.3954 95.96%

6 Blake Miguez 196 FY29399 GM Limited Major No No 1638.8501 94.83%

7 Emanuel Bragg 75 L2476 GM Limited Major No No 1637.6789 94.77%

8 Michael Seeklander 29 A30288 GM Limited Major No No 1634.4055 94.58%

9 Michael Voigt 21 RD4 GM Limited Major No No 1633.1739 94.50%

10 Todd Jarrett 221 L2458 GM Limited Major No No 1614.3153 93.41%

Single Stack:

Place Name USPSA Class Division PF Lady For Age Match Pts Match %

1 Robbie Leatham L684 GM Single Stack Major No No 1063.0829 100.00%

2 Dave Sevigny TY42164 GM Single Stack Major No No 1018.8333 95.84%

3 Michael Voigt RD4 GM Single Stack Major No No 974.5764 91.67%

4 Ted Puente TY42094 GM Single Stack Major No No 954.5062 89.79%

5 Michael Seeklander TY30288 GM Single Stack Major No No 938.5675 88.29%

6 Doug Koenig TY5804 GM Single Stack Major No No 930.1336 87.49%

7 Angus Hobdell L2546 GM Single Stack Major No No 928.1079 87.30%

8 Taran Butler L2354 GM Single Stack Major No No 924.9020 87.00%

9 Phil Strader FY31992 GM Single Stack Major No No 895.4655 84.23%

10 Shanon Smith TY38969 GM Single Stack Major No No 859.8795 80.89%

See a pattern here? Pick a division and don't worry about it being too easy

Welcome to the forum!

Later,

Chuck

[Merlin Orr]

Will...If you will pardon the thread drift a little. How many times in a match or in practice have you had a mag stick in your gun to the point that it has shut you down or required you to dig it out with a tool...?

[AlamoShooter]

I think it sounds like you want a Limited gun and want some backing on it being a way to progress.

Benny Hill says " Nothing wrong with having the best you can afford"

Lots to be said for having what you Desire. why stop at a Limited gun why not try Open?

You don't sound real happy about the shooting in your post, You sound driven but not happy.

My pickup holds 27 gallons I like having over a range of over 450 miles . Why would I put some kind of limit on a perfectly good truck to only hold 10 gallons?

Edit ....edit

Decide what you want and go for it, but make the trip to arrive part of the fun.

Edited February 26, 2008 by AlamoShooter

[AlamoShooter]

Will...If you will pardon the thread drift a little. How many times in a match or in practice have you had a mag stick in your gun to the point that it has shut you down or required you to dig it out with a tool...?

?What!?

[Chris Keen]

Like if I was still dating ....Why would I only go out with girls with an A cup

Besides Girls like a well polished ...Big Stick

What ???

[AlamoShooter]

Like if I was still dating ....Why would I only go out with girls with an A cup

Besides Girls like a well polished ...Big Stick

What ???

All reasons for him to buy a limited gun with at least a 140 mag or an open gun

A SS in a 32 round stage is about as appealing to me as a >...edit...<

But your rite I better go eddit that

Edited February 26, 2008 by AlamoShooter

[Forester]

Will...If you will pardon the thread drift a little. How many times in a match or in practice have you had a mag stick in your gun to the point that it has shut you down or required you to dig it out with a tool...?

I can think of once...it was a classifier and I still ended up at 68%, so not bad for me. It seems that my #4 10rd mag (they are all numbered) does not drop free, now I use it to top off and as a last ditch effort, drawing from my back pocket mag. Why do you ask? All the 8rders drop free fine. All of my match mags are Cobra mags.

A division that was too easy?...I would say I wish, but more likely I'd pass.

I don't know if I am looking for an excuse to buy a Limited gun or not, I sort of feel like I am looking for an excuse not to, but at the same time I want one...like I said in the first post...conflicted. How about this for a question, for those that switch back and forth how hard is the transition from a single stack gun to a SxI gun? A friend, and M class shooter I have learned alot from, offered recently to let me try out his Limited gun in a match, I may have to let that guide my decision.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

[Brazos SC Shooter]

I too started in the IDPA world and for the same reasons. Once I started shooting this game it was hard to go back. Then once I was in with both feet (so to speak) I jumped in with the Limited gun I wanted. Now just one year after that first one I am getting a 6" limited gun in the next few weeks.

Posting results from nationals just shows that at the highest level you will be running with the same pack of phenominal shooters. At local matches I see more competitors in Limited and Production. It has been motivating to me to shoot against GMs and Ms at local matches and strive to keep up or beat them. I get excited with each match as I watch my name climb up the list. The key is enjoying the competition and striving for improvement each time out.

[Forester]

About the Open gun suggestion...I have shot a buddy's several times, cool toy, but too much like a video game for me.

[Flexmoney]

You'd be switching guns, mags, loads, and bullet molds...powder, brass, primers, reloading setup too?

If it were me, I'd shoot the current working setup well into master class...and see what I felt like then.

Would I be wrong in thinking that Limited is more of a shooting skills (transitions, splits) oriented game and L-10 seems to emphasize game planning and reloads more? Obviously movement, in and out of shooting positions is critical in all divisions. I guess if I want to be competitive on a top level there is no less important aspect of my game?

Hmmmm...

L-10 requires more reloads and gives less choices on when and where to reload and how to attack a course of fire. That tends to bring the hit factor down.

Which way would you like me to argue that? There are pros and cons of each.

[BSeevers]

You'd be switching guns, mags, loads, and bullet molds...powder, brass, primers, reloading setup too?

If it were me, I'd shoot the current working setup well into master class...and see what I felt like then.

Would I be wrong in thinking that Limited is more of a shooting skills (transitions, splits) oriented game and L-10 seems to emphasize game planning and reloads more? Obviously movement, in and out of shooting positions is critical in all divisions. I guess if I want to be competitive on a top level there is no less important aspect of my game?

Hmmmm...

L-10 requires more reloads and gives less choices on when and where to reload and how to attack a course of fire. That tends to bring the hit factor down.

Which way would you like me to argue that? There are pros and cons of each.

I am sitting on my hands.

Been kind of salty to these type posts.

[chirpy]

Have been shooting USPSA for 25+ years and IDPA since the beginning almost. Have been and still am a middle of the road (C/MKSM). I haven't done much in L10 but spent last season shooting SS. I really enjoyed SS a lot and am torn between SS and L this season. I say (my .02) shoot what you enjoy for your first gun and if you have time for a re-shoot go with another division after you have a true L gun built or shoot L10 at one club and L at another and decide down the road. Your goals seem reasonable and this might give you a better picture for the future. Whatever you do - enjoy and welcome to the forum.

[Jman]

Choices...choices..

Stick to L10 and Master it.

Or, be like me, shoot everything and be pretty much Joe Average.

Of course, my goals are dramatically different than yours.

Jim M

[AlamoShooter]

About the Open gun suggestion...I have shot a buddy's several times, cool toy, but too much like a video game for me.

Your going to make me cry... and being an open shooter I have to be good at that. ...

...So?.... what IDPA friend of yours put that phrase in your head? (Video Game) If you can't Handel the speed just say its TOO Fast for you. NOW your part of the forum you got your first jab ? do you still love me?

Its been 8 years that I went from SS to a wide body Open gun = it was easy, But I shoot Revolver too. it takes about 20 minutes to change gears in my head form one gun to the next. On the speed stages is what knocks me down =switching.

Jamie

[Forester]

About the Open gun suggestion...I have shot a buddy's several times, cool toy, but too much like a video game for me.

Your going to make me cry... and being an open shooter I have to be good at that. ...

...So?.... what IDPA friend of yours put that phrase in your head? (Video Game) If you can't Handel the speed just say its TOO Fast for you. NOW your part of the forum you got your first jab ? do you still love me?

Its been 8 years that I went from SS to a wide body Open gun = it was easy, But I shoot Revolver too. it takes about 20 minutes to change gears in my head form one gun to the next. On the speed stages is what knocks me down =switching.

Jamie

Haha, I feel the love around here already...the video game comment was all me, I like my open sights and less complicated guns that work all the time . The more I think about it the more I think I will stick to the skinny gun for at least this year and next, see what happens from there. I will give Ltd a try though since I can borrow a gun and see how it suits me.

[Odie]

The only downside to having several different guns and calibers is just plain old EXPENSE. Personally, I don't hold to the idea of sticking with one gun/division. Go back and look at those Nationals scores. If it shoots, the TOP dogs in this game can shoot it. Think they got there driving one gun in one division? And I'd bet if they were hard pressed, a bunch of those same guys can run a Revo. We already know Robbie can run an M1A. What's the one thing all those guys have in common? Fundamentals. Yes, there are differences in divisions. But when viewed from a FUNDAMENTAL standpoint, those differences are miniscule to the point of almost being moot. Your practice regimen/discipline to practice sounds good, stick with it. You asked if your goals in classification were "unreasonable". Unreasonable is just a word. If you make your goal, great. If you don't, then you have a better idea where you stand and what to do about it. It is what it is. What you do about it is all that matters. Walk away from every match and every practice and ask yourself what you learned. Ask yourself what you need to work on. If you can't think of ONE thing, you should be concerned. Never mind the screw ups, what did you LEARN? Go get you a limited gun if you want one and shoot it till the slide falls off. Get you an Open gun too, I'm gonna get one when I get ahead on cash, and a single stack too. And just like the guns I have now, I'm going to try and destroy them with practice and dry fire. They'll be replaced, then I'll set about doing the same thing to the new ones. That's my .85 cents. (Thats 2 cents after tax ).

[Gallow]

I have a small amount of sponsorship likely lined up beginning the end of this year, and since the 'smith building my gun will be on the same team I can get the work done fairly reasonably. Should I switch from a gun and division I enjoy to play what seem to be the "big boy's game" in Limited or stick with what I am good at and seem to be moving along well in?

What say you and why?

Edited to add: Pictures, and; I am on the same name over on 1911forum and cast boolits forum (I cast boolits for my practice ammo and for a few rifles I play with sometimes)

Forester--

Do your local matches have a lot of L-10 shooters, with several at your level and several better than you are? Since you're ambitious, I think it does make a difference what other people shoot if you find yourself shooting against just a few others in your division. If you've got the funds, and your eyes are good, I'd say go Limited.

[boo radley]

Benny Hill says " Nothing wrong with having the best you can afford"

Decide what you want and go for it, but make the trip to arrive part of the fun.

I thought Benny Hill said, "Get that single-stack made in South Korea(?) Indonesia(?), and use the rest for bullets".

I like your last statement, however.

Life is short -- in the 3 years I've been shooting, I've seen more clubs close than open and ammo prices and travel costs are sky-rocketing. You (and I) are fortunate to live in a good area for this sport, so enjoy to the fullest as conscience, family, work, etc, allow.

At most matches, Limited will have the largest numbers of shooters, top to bottom, and that in itself might be a good reason to shoot it. It's all good -- I like Limited for the run-and-gun flow, and the reward of fluid movement; I love Production (or L10) for having to execute a game plan with surgical precision, and the creativity and reloading options it provides.

If a Limited pistol will enhance your fun, go for it. As those much wiser and better than me have said, you can reach whatever goal to want with what you're currently shooting. But -- maybe because I started shooting at a later age (40) -- I'm finding the reward IS the journey.

[Jay6]

I do not know if I would say I am in the same position but I know where you are coming from. When I first started shooting USPSA I started in limited 10 just because that is the gun I already owned (G21). This year I have decided to stick it out with my current setup and get as good as I possibly can instead of trying to upgrade anything or switch to my single stack or production gun. Yes, there are less people to compete against in a match but I find myself (at least mentally) competing against all of the poeple in Limited as well. Aiming to beat them even with all the extra reloads gives me a little more motivation and then satisfaction when and if it happens.