Tman33_99 Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Naw, the upper A Zone should be only 5 points plus one credit towards a mike or No-shoot of your choice But only for Major Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Am I the only person that actually thinks it actually takes less collective effort to simply to shoot at the letter "A" than to keep pissing and moaning about how "unfair" the scoring system is? Probably not. But, do the math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midvalleyshooter Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 ... do the math. Everybody shooting for the same cupie doll gets scored the same way. There's no math to be done. I guess this is a good omen for the state of USPSA/IPSC as there doesn't seem to be anything important left to gripe about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 My opinion is that power factor should not be an element of scoring in production. The only requirement would be a lower minimum of 125 PF. Points should be awarded 5, 4 & 2 to allow potential production shooters to at least "think" they may be competitive with the other divisions. Even though the divisions compete separately folks like to compare scores. This above scoring change would give the perception of a level playing field across all divisions. The flaw is here: In all other divisions to score 5,4,2 instead of 5,3,1 one must shoot major power factor. So how is it equitable to compare results across divisions when you're shooting minor but scoring major? When I introduced my friend to the sport, I made sure to shoot production at every match he attended for the first year or so --- that way he had someone he could compare himself to, and someone he could talk stage strategy with.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 One problem with scoring Production as Minor is that it seems that the shooters generally shoot slower than the Major PF L-10 shooters. Why? Because a couple C's or a D can truly trash your run. Since we don't award an overall and technically we don't have a combined scoring, what would hurt is Production scored the same as the other divisions? Let it be 5-4-4-2 instead of 5-3-3-1. It would make the stategies in L-10, Production and even limited much more compatible, maybe causing more cross divisonal shooting. My two cents Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 D V C The other Divisions shoot Minor too. Scoring Production as Major doesn't allow for a fair comparison...if one were so oncline to compare between Divisions. (The Limited classifier I shot to move up to A-class...I shot Minor. The Limited classifier I shot to move up to Master...I shot Minor.) There's no math to be done. Sure there is. For Bravo hits in Minor. The time it takes to get the points for "head shots" is punitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 I realize that the other divisoins CAN shoot minor, but generally they shoot major. Production is the only division that is scored only as minor regardless of actual PF. Since we only score with in the divisions, changing Production to score as Major would in my opinion be a positive change. Right now all, or almost all Production shooters shoot slower in order to try to get all A's. In L-10 as an example, I get 5-4-4-2 for A-B-C-D. In production I get 5-3-3-1. SHooting a A-C in Production is the same as shooting 2C in any other Divison. Therefore one tends to slow down just a bit and work too hard on accuracy. THis throws the DVC out of kilter. Shooting a D is REAL bad, L-10 CD= 6 points, Production AC= 7 Points. So in L-10 we reward a Charlie and a near miss with the almost same points that Porduction gets for an Alpha and a Charlie that barely misses the perf. Virtually every Production shooter I know is always commenting on the need to go slow enough to get all A's. I think we do our selves a disservice by scoring Production as we do. Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 I think the proposal to score minor-shooting guns major (in any divisions) should be supplemented with the proposal to change the motto from "DVC" to just "C". Much easier to remember. --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 I think the proposal to score minor-shooting guns major (in any divisions) should be supplemented with the proposal to change the motto from "DVC" to just "C". Much easier to remember.--Detlef Or, better yet, to "CCC". Perhaps even add a "P" on the end, because that'd be the best thing to do given that it's the most socially fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 If anything they should score production A zone hits 4 points, except for a one inch blue circle painted on each target that would be called the "Nexus Plexus". Hitting the Nexus Plexus would be worth 20 points or one free procedural. Or we could just leave it alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIIID Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 There is nothing wrong with how Production is scored right now. Having the B zone scored as 4 points would be justified if we only shot at the head only all of the time. How many times have you seen a shooter shoot at a wide open target with 1 round in the body A zone and 1 round in the head A zone (or B zone)? Did the shooter actually AIM at the head or was just lucky they hit the head. Giving a extra point for luck isn't what I think this sport is about. As for slowing down to shoot Prod. go ahead just don't think you are going to be competitive at the top of the game. I have had this disscusion many a times with shooters and I always tell them the same thing. I shoot as fast as the sights tell me to shoot. I ask them in Limited you shoot faster because a C is only down one point and it doesn't hurt your score that much! The whole point is to shoot two A's as fast as you can not two C's. There is more important things to talk about in Prod. than a B hit should score 4 points. Just a mini rant, Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 good one 300lb, I fully support "CCCP". Hm...somehow I remember this symbol, but where, where???? (o.k., does this qualify as the silliest thread ever on benos?) --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 There is more important things to talk about in Prod. than a B hit should score 4 points. Lets start a thread and talk about them. I'm certainly open to that. Having the B zone scored as 4 points would be justified if we only shot at the head only all of the time. How many times have you seen a shooter shoot at a wide open target with 1 round in the body A zone and 1 round in the head A zone (or B zone)? Did the shooter actually AIM at the head or was just lucky they hit the head. Giving a extra point for luck isn't what I think this sport is about. I know I (and many other) have doen the same thing Shooting Major. I don't think the scoring is the part you really have an issue with? It's geting credit for the lucky shot, right? I agree...but don't know a way of regulating/scoring that? Of course, we all get some lucky (uncalled) hits every now and then...all over the paper and steel. And, there are plenty of situations that the only viable/available shot is the head shot. In my experience, that is the case more often than somebody getting a lucky head-hit? I should note that I look at this from a "shooting" perspective, not a "purists" perspective. Few are out in our game shooting defensive loads and such. For me, it's about the shooting challenge. I think minor should be minor...from a shooting perspective (in any and all divisions). Sure, it favors accuracy...as it should. There is less recoil to manage with those mouse fart loads. I think that, if people were to go and calculate their split and transition times...shooting minor...for head shots, they would find that Minor Bravo = 3pts. is punitive. I could be wrong, let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 I have not read the complete thread...spotted it too late..., but what would the advantages be to change the scoring for production (not the PF)? I can not see that anything would change to anyone if you make B=(any arbitrary nr). Just asking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midvalleyshooter Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 Deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 Keith, Nice avatar! Your post seems to indicate that you care about your placement in the fictitious "overall" rankings. That’s cool. I like to look at those scores as well. The problem lies in the fact that other shooters, who are shooting actual major pf loads, care about the fictitious "overall" rankings as well. By artificially allowing minor pf loads to score major you are screwing those shooters out of their imaginary placement in the fictitious overall rankings. Sure they will place the same in their actual divisions but we aren't talking about reality here we are talking about unofficial overall scores and those who love them. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midvalleyshooter Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 Keith,Nice avatar! Your post seems to indicate that you care about your placement in the fictitious "overall" rankings. That’s cool. I like to look at those scores as well. The problem lies in the fact that other shooters, who are shooting actual major pf loads, care about the fictitious "overall" rankings as well. By artificially allowing minor pf loads to score major you are screwing those shooters out of their imaginary placement in the fictitious overall rankings. Sure they will place the same in their actual divisions but we aren't talking about reality here we are talking about unofficial overall scores and those who love them. -ld Cool, I understand where you are coming from:) Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 what would the advantages be to change the scoring for production (not the PF)? I can not see that anything would change to anyone if you make B=(any arbitrary nr). Just asking... Two seperate issues. One is talking about changing Production scoring. The other (which I shouldn't have piggy-backed onto this thread) talks about changing Minor scoring...for Bravo. And, not to an "arbitrary number". Not at all. Changing the Minor-Bravo to 4 points would give a better representation/equality of the time it actually takes to engage the "upper A/B zone". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 Hi guys, Despite the thread drift, allow me to comment on the two separate issues: 1) Production: Although I cannot speak for the entire IPSC General Assembly, I'm willing to bet my left cojone that Production Division will never have Major/Minor scoring. Apart from the primary criteria of "no single-action-only" guns, another idea behind the creation of Production Division was making a home for guns chambered fo 9x19mm, which is the most commonly available calibre in the world that qualifies for IPSC competition. And, more importantly, IPSC is simply not about to effectively force the thousands of Production Division competitors around the world, who purchased 9x19mm guns in good faith, to go buy larger calibre guns. 2) Scoring Values: I'm willing to bet the other cojone that scoring values will not change unless there's a major, comprehensive overhaul of all scoring values but, to me, that seems highly unlikely. I realise some of you are unhappy the upper B zone is only worth 3 points for Minor, but have you considered the "inequity" in the fact that metal plates, mini poppers and full size poppers, which have considerable size differences, are all worth the same 5 points, regardless of power factor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 Unless I am mistaken, no one is asking for Major/Minor scoring in Production. I think what some are asking is that since EVERYONE is shooting Minor, why don't we just score Major POINTS for the hits, ie., A 5pts, C/B 4 pts, D 2 Pts. Why are we slowing the production shooters down by penalizing them as minor when that is all they shoot? There would be no advantage gained if we scored everyone Major, but still set the PF FLoor at 125 and didn't have a Major PF, just Major Scoring. That would encourage a bit more speed in the Production Division, where right now a lot of Production shooters concentrate perhaps too much on getting all A's because a C, or worse a D, is so punative. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 Why are we slowing the production shooters down by penalizing them as minor when that is all they shoot? There would be no advantage gained if we scored everyone Major, but still set the PF FLoor at 125 and didn't have a Major PF, just Major Scoring.That would encourage a bit more speed in the Production Division, where right now a lot of Production shooters concentrate perhaps too much on getting all A's because a C, or worse a D, is so punative. Jim I don't see the top dogs shooting much slower in Production than they do in other iron sight divisions ---- I might see a few more make-up shots..... I think the slow down is in shooters heads..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 This thread wins the prize. I won't say for what, but congratulations on the big, blue, ruffled ribbon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midvalleyshooter Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 Jim- Good point, I agree with you. DVC, Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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