Production Question

[Flexmoney]

But you wouldn't want to do it by having your Minor power factor gun falsely inflated to MAJOR, would you?

I know I wouldn't.

[Jake Di Vita]

No I wouldn't. I like being the underdog and still winning (as seldom as that might be ).

[EricW]

Keep it up and I'm going to petition Uncle Vinny to convert Production into a 44 mag and up division with 44 mag scored as minor. Wanna score major? Get out yer 454 Casull.

[Vince Pinto]

Keep it up and I'm going to petition Uncle Vinny to convert Production into a 44 mag and up division with 44 mag scored as minor.  Wanna score major?  Get out yer 454 Casull.

Sounds kinda cool. I've always wanted an excuse to shoot my 8" S&W Model 629 in IPSC.

In fact, at one of the matches I attended in Australia a few years back, there was a guy happily shooting a Desert Eagle in 44 Magnum. The only problem was that as he was shooting the stage next to mine on the other side of a huge berm, the poppers on my stage kept falling down due to the sonic boom ......... or maybe it was out of sheer fright?

[Skywalker]

[total thread drift]

I've always wondered what would have happened if a competitor showed up to a match with, let's say, a .454 or, worse, a .50.

Would the match director allow him to shoot at his precious plates and poppers?

Would there still be a stage and match to shoot for following squads?

I know there is nothing written in the rules to prevent this, but I'm not sure how I would handle it, if I were the MD and/or RM.

[/tdt]

[EricW]

[/Thread Drift Off]

It's either 454 for major in Production or people quit their bitchin'. I've got enough mags sitting in the living room and beer in the frigo to bribe my way to success, so y'all just better quit messing with the divisions.

[mcoliver]

I think production would be more popular if major points were awarded though. I know I speak blasphemy......I'm suggesting 9mm production, (yep 125 PF) get 4 points for a B or C hit and 2 for a D hit.

Potential production shooters might be more inclined to venture out and shoot along the S_I's and Para's with their DA pistols if they were given the same points for their hits.

This would hurt no one. Surely the major shooting Open blasters and Limited folks would not be agaisnt this move. If so, why? Perhaps there are more pitfalls to this suggestion, what might they be?

Best regards,

Keith

I see one problem. More capacity for the 9.

With the 9 that's scored major, (I think) I can stuff over 20 rounds in a para mag with a BP that'll still be box-compliant. (Although I haven't tried it yet. This is just basing on my existing para mag that can already hold 19 40cal rounds.) You'd probably see people switch for more capcity and the lesser recoil.

The problem (for me at least) is that I can't afford another gun nor an "upgrade".

Unless we're only talking USPSA where Prod shooters are "handicapped" with 10 rounds?

[jhgtyre]

I think production would be more popular if major points were awarded though. ...This would hurt no one. Surely the major shooting Open blasters and Limited folks would not be agaisnt this move. If so, why? Perhaps there are more pitfalls to this suggestion, what might they be?

Best regards,

Keith

It could hurt someone when it came time to walk the prize table. Depending, of course, on the prize table setup. I have been to a major match where the table had an Open side and a Limited Side with all shooters not shooting Open being pushed onto the Limited side. If we allow Production to be scored major then someone who shot major in Limited could get knocked down a place or twelve by some Production shooters who only had to deal with minor recoil but got Major points.

I know this problem wouldn't come up all the time and there are remedies but it is something that could happen if the change in quester were allowed.

-ld

[Skywalker]

Maybe I don't get it correctly, but I need to ask: why score major Production?

You can't use it to compare your scores to other divisions (as Flex and jhg point out it's not fair to score minor the same as major).

You wouldn't get any benefit from it if you don't use it for comparing with other divisions: as long as it is the same for all Production shooters, being scored minor/major doesn't matter at all.

And, don't be fooled to believe that with major scoring in production division you could fill the gap with top shooters by going a bit faster and getting even with a few points less: they'd simply shoot more points faster, thus you'd not benefit from this.

IMHO, leave it as it is:

- Open Division, slightly oriented towards speed.

- Standard Division, a good balance of accuracy and speed.

- Production Division, slightly oriented towards accuracy.

- Revolver: heavily oriented towards accuracy.

[Chuck Anderson]

I can understand the reasoning for production being scored major. Right now production is a game of Alphas. It requires shooters to get the good hits that Limited/Open guns can slide by with Charlies on. Production makes doubles the penalties for shots outside the A zone. Production is scored as a different division at every match that I have attended. I have yet to see a prize table combined with Production and Limited shooters. Right now this would do a huge disservice to Production. This is really a Production matter that wouldn't affect the other divisions. Making Produciton Major across the board would definitely change the feel of the division.

[jhgtyre]

I can understand the reasoning for production being scored major. Right now production is a game of Alphas. It requires shooters to get the good hits that Limited/Open guns can slide by with Charlies on. Production makes doubles the penalties for shots outside the A zone. Production is scored as a different division at every match that I have attended. I have yet to see a prize table combined with Production and Limited shooters. Right now this would do a huge disservice to Production. This is really a Production matter that wouldn't affect the other divisions. Making Produciton Major across the board would definitely change the feel of the division.

So do you want to allow major caliber ammo to be used, thus giving the 9mm production gun no place to be competitive, or do you want to keep the minor power factor and just get scored major anyway, a move which skews the overall scores and is unfair to those who shoot real major ammo and care about the overall?

Just make posting overall scores illegal and then this problem will probably die.

-ld

[Patrick Sweeney]

OK, lets stop comparing apples to cinderblocks. Production is its own Division, just like the others. Yes, its all nice and fuzzy to roll all the scores together and compare the whole match, but it is just a mathematical comparison. It isn't a real competition.

So, Production Major or Minor? Should be considered solely within the Division. The simple answer is, if you score Production Major/Minor, by the next season there would be no one shooting a 9mm except perhaps Dave Sevigny, who punches As real fast anyway. Everyone else would have switched to mostly 40, with a few 45s in the mix. Why? Because the scoring as set up makes it uncompetitive to shoot Minor against an equally-skilled opponent shooting Major. Period, end of story, don't start lecturing me on the speed/score ratio, and the ability to shoot faster while shooting a Minor gun. Been there, done that, (1985) and it doesn't work.

If we switched Production to Major/Minor, we'd suddenly have a whole bunch of annoyed shooters whose 9mm investments were negated, and who felt they had to either switch to 40, or switch to another competition. And new shooters would look at Production as just another equipment game, where they could not have a chance without a serious outlay of money.

If you make Production scored the same regardless of power factor, you can make the values anything you want. Score the targets 17-12-3 for all it matters. You're scoring all the competitors in the Division the same. It only matters to keep it the same as Minor for the other Dvisions, to keep the stats people sane. And allow for the mathematical comparison some of us so love.

Are the serious carrygun people who use big calibers at a disadvantage in Production? They sure are. If they feel strongly enough about using a real gun with real ammo, shoot Limited 10. Leave Production alone, as an entry method for new shooters, and a Division for guns that would have no other place to shoot in USPSA/IPSC competition.

[Flexmoney]

Something else that favors leaving it alone...

USPSA Production is the closest thing we have to IDPA. In fact, there is very little difference between USPSA Production and IDPA's Stock Service Pistol (SSP) Division.

IDPA has a fixed hit factor (time-plus scoring). And, it is low enogh to favor accuracy.

If we allowed Production to be scored Major, then we...in turn... would be raising the hit factors...thus, lessening the importance of accurace. That would put a gap between Production and SSP. That can only be bad.

I think we are good as is.

[Jake Di Vita]

I agree with Flex although would like to add one thing.

The only problem with that logic is that the entire IDPA head is -0 rather than having a -0 and a -1 zone on it.

[shred]

[total thread drift]

I've always wondered what would have happened if a competitor showed up to a match with, let's say, a .454 or, worse, a .50.

[/tdt]

50 AE is OK if you've got really good steel. We've tried it.

Otherwise you'd likely get told to come back with something that doesn't create an unsafe range (cratered steel) for everybody else.

[Flexmoney]

I agree with Flex although would like to add one thing.

The only problem with that logic is that the entire IDPA head is -0 rather than having a -0 and a -1 zone on it.

That is true. Although Production still has a highier hit factor, I think.

Perhaps there ought to be some middle ground (and thank for giving me the opportunity to bring this up again)...

Minor Bravo = 4 points.

(that would be logical)

[Jake Di Vita]

We should start a petition for Minor Bravo scoring to be 4 points.

[kimber45]

We should start a petition for Minor Bravo scoring to be 4 points.

Me likey

[Barrettone]

Drift mode / on

Kimer45...If yer gonna chime in on production questions, then the call sign has gotta go. Might I suggest Glock9???? Just a thought.

Drift mode / off

[kimber45]

Drift mode / on

Kimer45...If yer gonna chime in on production questions, then the call sign has gotta go.  Might I suggest Glock9????  Just a thought.

Drift mode / off

I was just thinking about changing my call sign too. But everyone know me by all the hundreds of posts I've already written.

[Tman33_99]

We should start a petition for Minor Bravo scoring to be 4 points.

Then shouldn't Major Bravo be scored 5?

[Jake Di Vita]

For what reason?

[Tman33_99]

The B Zone is the same width as the lower A Zone, and not as tall. If 4 points is going to be awarded for B Minor, my opinion is B Major should be scored as 5 points, to account for major PF.

[EricW]

Am I the only person that actually thinks it actually takes less collective effort to simply to shoot at the letter "A" than to keep pissing and moaning about how "unfair" the scoring system is?

[Jake Di Vita]

So by that logic the upper A zone should be 6 points for Major because it's smaller. To account for Major PF of course.