Paul B Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 I was at a major match a few years ago and had an interesting experience with target covers. The match was 10+ stages, but shot in 1 day with both Sat and Sun available as choices. My squad shot on Sat and the weather never rained but it was threatening all day. All the stages except 1 had removed the target covers for all squads, but one stage left them on all day. This was a long stage with a potentially high hit factor. The reason given for leaving on the covers was that the multiple target arrays were so complicated that if it began to rain it would take too long to put the covers on. By the end of the day the covers had so many bullet holes that they were more and more opaque, but even when they were new it's harder to see your hits. The next day, Sun the weather was clearer so all the covers were removed and all squads shot the stage with no covers. The question is, was the shooting problem the same for everyone on this particular stage? I understand both sides of the cover question here, but would really like some opinions. By the way I shot it ok, but a few grumblers on the squad did not think it was a trip to the beach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 the same thing happened last year at the Alabama Section Champ. with our squad. all the other stages stripped the plastic but this one stage. they said they wanted to be consistant for all the squads. which i thought was a load of crap. i think the bagging of targets should be consistant, but it should be the RM or MD's call. the bags should be on or off for all stages. jmt, lynn jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Talking about bagging the targets against rain: I don't think it is something that will prevent targets from becoming wet; at least, after a few shots and holes, the bags are almost useless, leaving raindrops getting inside and soaking the whole target. Here in Italy we have a different approach: we do not follow the Appendix B recommendation, not cutting stakes at all on targets. This will serve as a stand to place a plastic roof on top of the targets when raining. Think of it as a sort of "target umbrella": it works really well, more efficiently than bagging the targets. In 2001, when President Alexakos was in Terni for the 1st International Range Officers Seminar, we demonstrated this to him, and he was quite interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 I fully understand the issue of shooting through bags. This is especially difficult if you have partial targets underneath, as it is damn near impossible to see if you dropped a shot into hard cover. At least at the big matches the RM makes the call, and I can not think of a stituation where we did not bag or unbag together (meaning bags on all stages, or bags on no stages). However, this really doesn't answer the question of whether there was a different shooting challenge presented, since if you bag or unbag midday, one squad will shoot Stage X through bags and another will not. Unfortunately, I think those are the breaks, like 'em or not. We have a big match coming this weekend, and it looks like rain all day Saturday, and clear skies on Sunday. Will the Sunday shooters have an advantage? Possibly, but I don't know what anyone can do about it and it really is no different than any other weather situation. Last year at Bend we had to try to time some of the shooters (primarily on the staff days), so that they did not end up shooting a stage fighting the blinding dust in a dust devil. Other shooters had to deal with morning fog, while afternoon shooters might have had sun.... was there a different challenge? Possibly, but it seems outside anyones control. Vinny, does anything in the rule book address this kind of stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 I look at it the same as BDH. It is kinda like another feature of the weather. There isn't a whole lot the match staff can do. I know that when I shot the Limited Nationals in 2001, the staff put the bags on and off on all the stages at one time. For our squad, on one of our last stages to shoot, it hadn't been raining for quite a while. I asked the RO if they would remove the bags (I think we were their very last squad...so no re-bagging would have been needed). The RO called up the Range Master and asked. The RM decided to leave the bags on..for ALL the stages. It was a good call. Our squad was finishing early. Other squads still had a few stages to go. And...it started to rain again. I then went and watched (with Uncle Bill) the Super-Squad finish the match. Leatham, Barnhart, and Jarrett were within 5 points of each other going into the last stage. It was a big stage (140 points). I think the start position was in a big puddle. The Super-Squad certainly had a tougher stage to shoot than when I shot it a day or two before. I just pulled up the results...most of the top of the list on that stage were the big-dogs (and a great showing from our very own Erik Warren). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Skywalker, I think the "umbrella" idea has tons of possibilities. I saw something like that at a local IDPA match, it works well for rain from 45-90 deg (typical). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Hi guys, An interesting discussion and it's something which is not specifically mentioned in the rules. Damn! I'm never gonna get any sleep. Don't you guys have any love or mercy for me? As Flex said, there's nothing match officials can do to stop inclement weather. In one respect, the rain covers are "fair" when they are applied to all stages simultaneously but, on the other hand, they might not seem so fair to Squad 5 if they're shooting 4 long courses while the rain covers are applied as Squad 10 is shooting 4 short courses. It's the luck of the draw. Anyway I will give this matter some thought and discuss it with my rules committee who, being an extremely brilliant team of legislators, will find a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 An interesting discussion and it's something which is not specifically mentioned in the rules. Damn! I'm never gonna get any sleep. Don't you guys have any love or mercy for me? VP, sure we do...... that's why Flex, myself and several others are giving you a few days off. Of course we will probably come back with a few strange questions from the Buckeye Blast! Especially, if SA plays 'stump the RO' again..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 OK guys, here's my initial proposal: New 2.3.5: During inclement weather, the Range Master may order that paper targets be fitted with transparent protective covers, and this order is not subject to appeal by competitors (see 6.6.1 and 10.6.1). Such covers must remain fitted to all paper targets for the same period of time, until the order is rescinded by the Range Master. Note that 10.6.1 will be the new number of current 10.4.1. OK, it's on the table. Feel free to begin beating up on me ............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Alright Vince... you musta been sleeping it off last year after the Race Gun Nationals when we were ranting on the old board. The Team-BE squad got hosed on the standards in the rain. The COF was a bunch of strings and went something like: Shoot some from WAY far away. Move closer, shoot some closer strong-hand-only, move closer, shoot some from 7 yards weak-hand-only. Every other squad shot it in the dry (or even more irritating, got to wait for the fog to clear completely), but we had baggies on the targets and most of us shot from concealment under raincoats. Every other squad got down to the last shooting box and before the string started, started jigging around looking to see if they had all their holes in the targets before the clock started. They then made up any misses quickly and gained a few match points. We, of course had no such luxury-- no matter how you look at a wet bagged target, it still looks like a wet, bagged target with no clear hits on it. As I was wet, cold, tired, irritable and wanted to get home, I didn't think to ask the baggies be lifted so I could look at the targets. I believe somebody else did and was denied. Surely that's some sort of 'competitive disadvantage'? Anyway, we thought hard about Arb-ing it, but an RD happened by and said "well, you got hosed, but there's no rule, so it's not going to be worth filing". Gotta have something about competitors being allowed to look under baggies if there are multiple strings on the same target.. won't that be lovely wording to work into the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luiz Francisco Ramos Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 A sugestion: We could use the same targets, same color, etc... made by anoyher kind of material, maibe some kind of plastic material, to be used in raining days. This could be the ideal solution... A litlle more expensive, but more tecnically correct... Ramos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 What about the Scotchguard idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 The Team-BE squad got hosed on the standards in the rain. I was wondering when/if someone was gonna bring this up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 memories....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 Scotchguard may work but in this day of all the high tech coatings that are available I would think there might be something better. Anyone tried Thompson's Water Seal like is used on wooden decks? How about the various polyurethane finishes? There is also good old parafin wax although some tape has a tough time sticking to it. Since my participation in a match seems to guarantee nasty weather I guess I should take it upon myself to test some of these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 Vince, I consider your proposal a good one, at least very fair to everybody, but... ...it is limited to a single, specific, rain cover (i.e. transparent bags)! As I reported previously, not all regions or even clubs use the same rain cover. I would like to have a general rule, covering the subject of generic rain covers, not only rain bags. Just to better explain the kind of cover we are currently using, I have produced the drawing below. As TDean noticed, they work very well with slanting rain too. Is this kind of cover included in your proposal of rule 2.3.5? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 16, 2003 Share Posted May 16, 2003 Hi Luca, No, my draft rule does not cover the "Target Shelter" in your diagram (very sexy!), but I don't think it's an issue as your design does not block the view of the target as does a "Target Condom". BTW, I'm still searching my files to find the name of the (Australian?) manufacturer who made waterproof paper targets a few years ago. Water would simply run off the surface but if you used the correct type of patches, they would remain firmly in place. These targets were relatively expensive, but competitors preferred them over the condoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 18, 2003 Share Posted May 18, 2003 Luca, Inspired by your sexy "roof" design, I modified my rule proposal as follows: 2.3.5: During inclement weather, the Range Master may order that paper targets be fitted with transparent protective covers and/or overhead shelters, and this order is not subject to appeal by competitors (see 6.6.1). Such covers must remain fitted to all paper targets for the same period of time, until the order is rescinded by the Range Master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted May 19, 2003 Share Posted May 19, 2003 Vince, thanks for your effort in including the "shelters" (I like to call them "umbrellas") in your proposed rule. As I said before, what really perplexed me was that the rule shouldn't have addressed specific target covers, but instead should have been a general one. I mean, no matter what kind of cover the RM is going to put on the targets (well, ok, if he builds a concrete pillbox around them it matters ), this should be covered by the rule in question, to avoid forcing MD and RM to resort to specific type of covers instead of those they are used to. Anyway, I appreciate your effort in improving the rule book: hope I didn't take away from you too many sleeping hours with my posts and questions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted May 19, 2003 Share Posted May 19, 2003 Won't that sort of "rain umbrella" cover a scoring surface from a certain angle when without it you could have shot it from there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted May 19, 2003 Share Posted May 19, 2003 Hi mcoliver, it depends on the sort of umbrella you put on. If the side shields are not too high, and if you cant the roof to give it a positive pitch (i.e. front edge higher than back edge), it will serve to let water fall down and give a complete view of the target. Besides, if the roof is wide enough, you can dispense with side shields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luiz Francisco Ramos Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 BTW, I'm still searching my files to find the name of the (Australian?) manufacturer who made waterproof paper targets a few years ago. Hi Vince! Did you find that target manufacturer? Tell us how to contact them, please. thanks Ramos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 The Team-BE squad got hosed on the standards in the rain. I was wondering when/if someone was gonna bring this up. You know, I remember hearing about an issue on the standards, but I thought it was a fog issue early in the morning, and the RM delayed the match start so that everyone could see their targets. Am I just confused, or were there multiple issues on that stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Here's a link to the middle of the thread which discussed the 2002 RaceGunNats' rain and fog: http://64.62.172.100/~brianeno/index.php?s...36&t=4451&st=30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Hi mcoliver,it depends on the sort of umbrella you put on. If the side shields are not too high, and if you cant the roof to give it a positive pitch (i.e. front edge higher than back edge), it will serve to let water fall down and give a complete view of the target. Besides, if the roof is wide enough, you can dispense with side shields. Thanks Sky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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