USPSA bound by....

[Jaxshooter]

One of the reasons for purchasing the SC according to our President and BOD was to expand the scope of the USPSA. The worst thing they could do is eliminating any Divisions currently recognized by the SC. It would do nothing but further alienate IDPA shooters and shooters from other disciplines.

[Ron Ankeny]

Would going Open, Stock, and Stock (non race holster) work?

Yeppers, would work dandy. I'll bounce that off of the club members and Bruce. Now before anyone gets their pants in a knot over our plans to not recognize some divisions, keep in mind we have almost no shooters who don't cross over from IDPA to IPSC and vice-versa, and we have a lot of experience with "boot leg steel" matches. Many of you have more attendance at a club match than we have at a state match. In fact, I would wager (barring a crash) that I can pick the top two finishers in each division when I do registration. At our state IPSC match last year we had exactly one production shooter, only two revolver shooters, etc. Would you rather we allow people to combine into fewer divisions, or should we recognize everything and have 0, 1, or 2 shooters per division?

The fact if the matter is, around these parts the folks who are really into Steel Challenge are from the ranks of NRA Action Pistol. So, should we start making additional divisions around their rules? As another poster pointed out, we need to eventually migrate towards a uniform rulebook that doesn't try to make divisions all over the place and let shooters gear up accordingly.

My whole point is this, collectively USPSA members have a lot of experience and there is no reason why we can't over come any obstacles in the path to success.

[Steve J]

Would going Open, Stock, and Stock (non race holster) work?

Now before anyone gets their pants in a knot over our plans to not recognize some divisions, keep in mind we have almost no shooters who don't cross over from IDPA to IPSC and vice-versa, and we have a lot of experience with "boot leg steel" matches.

No problem. Lot's of club matches have say open, limited & production/IDPA, or simply stock auto, open auto and stock revolver, open revolver. Personally, in a club steel match I'm looking to beat a previous personal best time more than compete with someone else.

[bigj45]

Do competitors shooting in the IDPA divisions have to wear concealment?

[ddj8052]

Do competitors shooting in the IDPA divisions have to wear concealment?

No, the rules simply state that all your gear as well as placement of gear must follow IDPA guidelines. There is no cover garment.

[Sestock]

Call me crazy, but no event under the USPSA influence should follow IDPA rules.

This can be fixed easily and without much fanfare by adopting USPSA divisions plus the existing rimfire rules.

[Jaxshooter]

I disagree, if USPSA starts changing anything with the SC it will be the beginning of the end for the SC Match. Don't screw around with it, just shoot it.

[Steve J]

Call me crazy, but no event under the USPSA influence should follow IDPA rules.

This can be fixed easily and without much fanfare by adopting USPSA divisions plus the existing rimfire rules.

Ok, you're crazy. No, seriously. It doesn't follow IDPA rules. It follows Steel Challenge rules. It certainly can't follow USPSA rules either can it? That would require at least one cardboard target on every stage. Regardless of who or what entity owns it or organizes it, it is the Steel Challenge and the Steel Challenge uses Steel Challenge rules, and Steel Challenge rules provide divisions for all kinds of shooting competitors.

[Ron Ankeny]

I agree the big match needs to remain the same. All I want to know is can I combine divisions and tweak things a bit in order to get this thing off the ground in Wyoming? Our little match is limited to 50 competitors and if I need to buy trophies for one, two (or zero) competitors in all of those divisions and categories, I'll just cancel the match. Oh wait a minute, that kind of question needs to go to Bruce Gary not to a forum.

[Fireant]

Edited again.

Ron, you should be fine combining the divisions. The GA state match this month did not include all the divisions. They did rimfire, rimfire w/optics, open, limited and production. Then special categories like junior and female.

For USPSA don't try to fix something that is not broken. We don't need classifications and range lawyering going on. SC is THE most shooter friendly game out there. Lets keep it that way.

Edited January 23, 2008 by Fireant

[Sestock]

It certainly can't follow USPSA rules either can it? That would require at least one cardboard target on every stage.

What USPSA rule are you referring to?

[HoMiE]

It certainly can't follow USPSA rules either can it? That would require at least one cardboard target on every stage.

What USPSA rule are you referring to?

4.3.1.4

But doesn't matter, Steel Challenge is Steel Challenge. I don't see what the problem is with recognizing IDPA rules for equipment. As others have said prizes and awards are given by overall finish. And even USPSA borrowed(or at least made it bigger) the box size from SS/Production like IDPA so they wouldn't exclude people from shooting this game or that game.

So now the USPSA bought the rights to SC, now it can't have any references to IDPA. Someone better tell SASS to watch out, they're next.

[Steve J]

It certainly can't follow USPSA rules either can it? That would require at least one cardboard target on every stage.

What USPSA rule are you referring to?

What HoMie said. Thanks HoMie.

4.3.1.4 Various sizes of metal plates may be used (see Appendix B5), however, metal plates must not be used exclusively in a course of fire. At least one authorized paper target or Popper must be included in each course of fire.

It also doesn't meet this rule as it uses static steel plates.

4.3.1.5 Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score. Scoring Poppers which fail to fall when hit, are subject to the provisions of Appendix C1, 6 & 7. Scoring metal targets which a Range Officer deems have fallen or overturned due to a shot on the supporting apparatus or prematurely fallen or moved for any reason will be treated as range equipment failure. (See Rule 4.6.1).

So you see. Unless USPSA's intent (and I'm sure it isn't) is to completely destroy the Steel Challenge and do away with it, all this talk about it becoming a USPSA match and using USPSA rules is moot.

Edited January 23, 2008 by Steve J

[Flexmoney]

At our local Steel Challenge match we ran divisions that made sense to us...locally. The Match Director...directed...the match.

[HoMiE]

We run 2 divisons at our local match - Open and Limited.

Don't care what gun you shoot, what holster you wear or where you place your equipment on your belt. Step up and shoot.

[Chills1994]

shred on the first page wrote:

...Prize table trips are strictly in order of overall finish....

Well, shoot, I tried going to the new and improved steel challenge website and looking at the past results. I got a 404 error message.

Anywhooo.... so if I have this straight, if you're not shooting an Open blaster and/or you're just a mere mortal with your gun of choice (Limited, Production, Single/Stack, Wrist Rocket, Turbo Charged Pea Shooter, whatever??LOL!), you're pretty much NEVER gonna win anything at the big Piru, CA match?

Is that correct?

So it's pretty much "run whatcya brung, head's up" kinda match?

If that's the case, I think that sucks.

Edited to add these comments:

If it is going to include IDPA like divisions, then those guys shooting as IDPA need to be wearing a concealment garment.

If they are not wearing a concealment garment, what is to separate some of the SSP and ESP shooters from the Production shooters?

I'm also confused by the Single Stack / CDP / Steel Challenge rules. I thought that the Steel Challenge type matches did NOT require a minimum power factor. If you're gonna run an IDPA CDP division or category there, then I would expect a chronograph stage to be there. As you all probably already know, there is a 165 PF floor in CDP.

Do they chronograph the CDP guns/ammo at Piru?

As far as CDP and Single Stack being similar, like another poster already mentioned, yes they are very similar with the exception of the Single Stack shooters being able to declare major or minor PF. Minor PF'ed single stack guns would shoot in IDPA's ESP division.

@ Dirty Pool, dude, as per our PM's, I was wondering when somebody was going to bring up the IDPA recognition at Steel Challenge, thing.

That didn't take long.

<gloat mode on> Ha ha he he

Edited January 23, 2008 by Chills1994

[JFD]

There's a power floor in every type division except maybe the cowboy division.

I thought SC had a 120 minimum PF.

I think the SC needs equipment rules beyond saying refer to USPSA, IDPA, SASS rules.

I don't see the harm in stealing the current rules for the divisions in all 3 sports, locking them down the way they are now.

Having a SS division and a CDP division, as one example, is a bit much IMHO.

I'd really like to see USPSA range commands used.

[Steve J]

If it is going to include IDPA like divisions, then those guys shooting as IDPA need to be wearing a concealment garment.

If they are not wearing a concealment garment, what is to separate some of the SSP and ESP shooters from the Production shooters?

Do you shoot IDPA? Do you know anything about it? Concealment garments are only required in scenario stages where one would be expected to be wearing a concealment garment based on the defensive scenario. They are not an automatic or required part of your gear. Concealment garments are not required for standard exercises (although they may be if that's what the course designer wants) as standard exercises are shooting skill tests not scenarios.

IDPA's classifier match does not require a concealment garment for that very reason; therefore, there is no way concealment garments would be required for Steel Challenge stages even if it was a purely IDPA event.

[TRNinTX]

I think some people are confusing the idea that since USPSA purchased Steel Challenge it is now a USPSA match. It is not, what it is and it will hopefully always be is a Steel Challenge match. Textron is a good example. Textron owns Cessna and Bell Helicopter. They both fly, but they can't be built under the same rules. Textron also owns EZ Go Golf Carts and Jacobsen Turf Equipment. All of these entities are owned by the same company, but they work under different manufacturing rules.

Don't go screwing around with SC, it is the most succesful pistol match there is. I have yet to see a USPSA match where sponsors were willing to put up $30,000 for a "winner take all" promotion. If you don't like the rules, just take a pass and don't participate.

Anywhooo.... so if I have this straight, if you're not shooting an Open blaster and/or you're just a mere mortal with your gun of choice (Limited, Production, Single/Stack, Wrist Rocket, Turbo Charged Pea Shooter, whatever??LOL!), you're pretty much NEVER gonna win anything at the big Piru, CA match?

Is that correct?

So it's pretty much "run whatcya brung, head's up" kinda match?

If that's the case, I think that sucks.

The last place prize package at last year's Steel Challenge was worth between $300-$400 and there will still be guns deep into the finish.

Edited January 23, 2008 by TRNinTX

[Flexmoney]

Oh wait a minute, that kind of question needs to go to Bruce Gary not to a forum.

Ron...let me throw this into the mix. Your Area Director might not end up being the person to talk to. My Area Director and I had a phone conversation about this (me, looking into putting on a large SC match). Coming from an USPSA background, we kinda think in terms of USPSA organization. But, SC matches in Area 5 might not fall under the Area 5 director. SC matches in Ohio might not fall under the Ohio Section Coordinator. That organizational structure is yet to be determined. That is something that the needs to be looked at. (Which might just get taken for granted.)

[Flexmoney]

shred on the first page wrote:

...Prize table trips are strictly in order of overall finish....

So it's pretty much "run whatcya brung, head's up" kinda match?

If that's the case, I think that sucks.

Well, that is how the BIG match was ran. It seems to play out well for THAT match. The folks that can afford the experience, likely tend to be able to afford the open guns.

That won't play out so well at the local level. Which USPSA ought to have the experience to know.

If it is going to include IDPA like divisions...

The key word there is "like". The BIG match never said they were going to pull from all of the rules of another organization. They don't require the (USPSA "like") Open guns to make 165pf, for instance.

@ Dirty Pool, dude, as per our PM's, I was wondering when somebody was going to bring up the IDPA recognition at Steel Challenge, thing.

That didn't take long.

<gloat mode on> Ha ha he he

I brought that up...with my Area Director way back when...suggesting we'd end up talking about it here when it came up.

[Chills1994]

Steve J wrote:

Do you shoot IDPA? Do you know anything about it? Concealment garments are only required in scenario stages where one would be expected to be wearing a concealment garment based on the defensive scenario. They are not an automatic or required part of your gear. Concealment garments are not required for standard exercises (although they may be if that's what the course designer wants) as standard exercises are shooting skill tests not scenarios.

IDPA's classifier match does not require a concealment garment for that very reason; therefore, there is no way concealment garments would be required for Steel Challenge stages even if it was a purely IDPA event.

Does SO'ing IDPA Nat's count?

Not to toot my own horn here, but does winning my class/division and getting bumped twice in one year count also?

<gloat mode on>

Yeah, that glossy Nat's trophy sure does look nice.

<mode off>

LOL!

My point was and still is if you're gonna call something IDPA at another match venue it should... well... look kinda IDPA-like.

To me, anyways, that means wearing a concealment garment. Holster and mag pouch locations as per IDPA rules.

Again, if the competitors aren't shooting from concealment, then they all will look just like a bunch of Production or Single Stack shooters.

[Singlestack Wonder]

Wow. It's happening sooner than we expected. USPSA shooters want to eliminate any and all divisions that run by different requirements other than USPSA rules. One thing that made the Steel Challenge fun and exciting was the fact that whatever shooting discipline one came from, there was a division for them. Now the "Elite" minds of some feel that the match should be catered to their rules only. I anticipate that this is just the idle gossip from non-well rounded, "My sport is better than yours", shooting competitors, and not the "official" direction of USPSA. If the match went to USPSA rules only, the number of competitors will drop off significantly and the purchase of the Steel Challenge will become just another revenue losing "Land Deal.

But, if USPSA does eliminate all non-USPSA divisions, just think of the number of competitors looking for a new match! Perhaps the "International Steel Shooting Association" will be formed.

[Chills1994]

Flexmoney wrote:

Well, that is how the BIG match was ran. It seems to play out well for THAT match. The folks that can afford the experience, likely tend to be able to afford the open guns.

That won't play out so well at the local level. Which USPSA ought to have the experience to know.

I just want to be up front: I will probably NEVER, EVER make it to Piru to shoot the Big Match.

Could I afford an open gun? Sure!

Could I afford the ammo expense of getting good with an open gun? Sure!

Could I handle the stress induced by a finicky gun that chokes on every fifth round? No! I'd probably chuck the thing over the berm after or during the first match.

(That's just my own anecdotal evidence there. It's not meant to be a slam against the Open guys or their blasters.)

The Big Match is like the Super Bowl of the action pistol world. It's a cliche, yeah, I know, it is what it is.

For me, I'm too cheap to travel that far to a match that seems like for this lowly B class shooter to be financing the prize table for the Masters and the GM's. That is if that's how they finance the prize table there. Seems like they have hooked in pretty good with their sponsors. All the more power to 'em.

Flex also wrote:

I brought that up...with my Area Director way back when...suggesting we'd end up talking about it here when it came up.

LOL!

Well.... ladie-da-da... LOL!

Some of us aren't as privy to the insider information like you are Flex, and the rest of the SC's.

LOL!

Single Stack Wonder wrote:

Wow. It's happening sooner than we expected. USPSA shooters want to eliminate any and all divisions that run by different requirements other than USPSA rules. One thing that made the Steel Challenge fun and exciting was the fact that whatever shooting discipline one came from, there was a division for them. Now the "Elite" minds of some feel that the match should be catered to their rules only. I anticipate that this is just the idle gossip from non-well rounded

First off, I gotta ask, was that directed at any one particular poster?

I don't consider myself "elite" and I never said that one sport was better or worse than another

(slight thread drift on)

If you make your way over to the SASS Wire Forums the big stink there is how their SASS HQ is instituting a new rule of a minimum 60 power factor floor.

That rule with such a low power factor and the response it is getting on that forum, to me anyways, in my opinion, makes that "sport" a joke.

If come Novemember, some CAS'er pulls the lever on some pro(er)-gun candidate, that's what counts in my book.

But I digress...

(drift off)

As far as this is being idle gossip, it's a forum. On the internet.

Besides getting really good info on gunsmithing and becoming a better shooter and some other miscellaneous sub forums, what else is there to do but GOSSIP on this forum.

Yeah, I have my opinions. Some could say I have my own agenda (eeekkk....gasp!! ) .

I just like getting what I think out there in the open and maybe, just maybe, someone higher up the food chain might think:

"Ya, know, that Chills guy does have a point there." Or maybe they're at the opposite end of the spectrum: " Man that Chills, he must be smokin' crack!"

Can you think of anywhere else where the higher ups in any other entity get to read feedback of the rank and file members of their organization?

Edited January 23, 2008 by Chills1994

[Flexmoney]

I think some people are confusing the idea that since USPSA purchased Steel Challenge it is now a USPSA match. It is not, what it is and it will hopefully always be is a Steel Challenge match.

Don't go screwing around with SC, it is the most succesful pistol match there is.

Tim, all that is completely true.

I would point out, however, that what makes for a good big match, doesn't translate to the local monthly matches. And, that is what the SC organization never capitalized on. I think there were something like 31 listed clubs that were affiliated with the SC organization. Of those, I'll bet that half of them were not current with their dues and such. SC never offered out any support and guidance to the clubs at the local level.

We need to remember that USPSA didn't just buy "a match". If we don't think about it in a way that gets the matches built out on the local level, then we are stuck with just "a match". Thus, lowering the benefits of the purchase.