Coaching

[Coolduckboy]

I have read the Blue book at lunch yesterday and wanted to check the coaching rule which stated:

8.6 Assistance or Interference

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course

of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue

safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be

grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor

during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance)

may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural

penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6.

8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I

matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or

assistance they request.

My interpretation of this rule is that you will get penaltized for coaching if not first approved by the RO. So if a Veteran shooter misses a target someone calls out you missed a target then they will be penaltlized, but if a new shooter is shooting and a friends asks the RO if he/she could help them out along the way then the RO would have to say either yes or no.

Wrong or right?

[WDB]

Way I read it is at a level 1 (local) match if you let the RO know he/she is a new shooter coaching is allowed. Makes since, makes it easier to learn the sport and possible safer, we all remember how nervous/excited we were at our first match. Level II on up, you paid the big money to get in as well did everybody else and ultimately this is not a TEAM sport. You're on your own!!

[NMBOpen]

As I read 8.6.2.1 ANY shooter can request assistance, subject to RO approval. Nothing in the rule limits the coaching to new shooters only. I guess that's where RO discretion comes into play.

Edited January 8, 2008 by NMCOpen

[JThompson]

I think it was "intended" for new shooters, but the way it's written as long as the RO approves it anyone can be coached though a complete course or reminded of a missed target etc.

Edited January 8, 2008 by JThompson

[Coolduckboy]

I would start asking every RO, even when switching RO's through the squad if i could get coaching and what if one denies me and then next one allows coaching?

I would ask it on the basis that if I had a jam or lost round count then someone in the background would be able to say Reload or Dump mag. I understand that Level II and up this would not become possible.

[JThompson]

I would start asking every RO, even when switching RO's through the squad if i could get coaching and what if one denies me and then next one allows coaching?

I would ask it on the basis that if I had a jam or lost round count then someone in the background would be able to say Reload or Dump mag. I understand that Level II and up this would not become possible.

I think that is should read RM instead of RO... that way you do n't have 8 ROs with dif answers... to keep it consistant get the ruling from the RM and apply to all stages. If would also save time.

I agree, there is room for abuse here, but I think it's good for new shooters.

Edited January 8, 2008 by JThompson

[HoMiE]

I think 8.6.2.1 was intended for NEW shooters. If I was RO'ing and a SEASONED A class limited shooter asked if HE could be COACHED, I would have to say NO. Well, first I would have to try to keep from laughing and ask the shooter if they were serious, then I'd say NO.

[Loves2Shoot]

I would start asking every RO, even when switching RO's through the squad if i could get coaching and what if one denies me and then next one allows coaching?

I would ask it on the basis that if I had a jam or lost round count then someone in the background would be able to say Reload or Dump mag. I understand that Level II and up this would not become possible.

Duckboy,

If you have time (or lack of focus) enough to respond to anything the peanut gallery says you are in serious trouble in the stage and your frame of mind.

You do have your A card you don't need no stinking coaches, there is no shallow end of the pool any more for you.

[boz1911]

I would start asking every RO, even when switching RO's through the squad if i could get coaching and what if one denies me and then next one allows coaching?

I would ask it on the basis that if I had a jam or lost round count then someone in the background would be able to say Reload or Dump mag. I understand that Level II and up this would not become possible.

Duckboy,

If you have time (or lack of focus) enough to respond to anything the peanut gallery says you are in serious trouble in the stage and your frame of mind.

You do have your A card you don't need no stinking coaches, there is no shallow end of the pool any more for you.

Totally agree. Let's get real, a shooter with any significant experience is NOT going to ask for "coaching" during a stage. If he does it's likely his buddies are going REALLY help him if you know what I mean. Let's keep this where it belongs, with the brand new shooters.

[Coolduckboy]

I don't mind the critisism but the rules doesn't state, NEW SHOOTERS ONLY, now does it?

[Loves2Shoot]

Technically, no it doesn't.

8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I

matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or

assistance they request.

Practically, well I think that the feedback illustrates that no "regular" shooter will get a thumbs up from the RO. I think that coaching is a very BAD idea for any shooter that should know what they are doing. It would be a huge distraction me as a shooter as there is no way for the "coach" to know what I'm doing and I can imagine what they would have to do to get the attention of a shooter that is very focused on getting the course finished.

[Jim Norman]

My opinion only.

We tell new shooters to walk through a COF, leterally WALK, DO NOT RUN. Just find each target and shoot it. then go tot the next and repeat. A shooter at this or slightly advanced from this level, as an RO I would coach IF he requested it. As a general rule, i can't think of anyone wanting to be coached or of anyone being able to coach an decent C shooter who is actually running a COF. He'll be done and gone before you can get the words formed.

Now, that is not to say that teaming up to break down a stage BEFORE the buzzer isn't welcomed. But I think that is not what was meant by "Coaching" in this instance.

Jim

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

There are times when you reach a plateau where you are doing something wrong and can not see it yourself. If that time comes, being coached by a more experienced shooter can help. Whether you are a novice or a Master, the time can come. A level 1 (local match) is the place to get these things straightened out.

I think those that make the rules realize this.

[Ron Ankeny]

If some seasoned shooter asked if I (as RO) would allow coaching just so his rump was covered if one of his buddies yelled something, I would allow coaching. I would also appoint myself coach...beep..."Take your time, call your shots, now go over there, shoot that peiece of steel coming in...don't yank the trigger, holy cow you missed that popper...go,go,go...".

[SteveZ]

"competitors at Level I matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or assistance they request."

It would seem (based on previous responses in this thread) that the shooter could request "coaching" and that someone in the peanut gallery could then yell something to the shooter...without penalty to either the shooter or peanut gallery person. I think it would be better to specify WHO the coaching must come from (e.g. the RO) to prevent peanut gallery from yelling suggestions during their run (confusing both the shooter and RO).

The last part of 8.6.2.1 (receive whatever coaching or assistance they request) almost seems to imply they must define WHO they want the coaching to come from. Is it OK for them to just say "I want coaching" or must they say "I want coaching from you (the RO)? Or is it implied that the coaching can ONLY come from the RO in 8.6.2.1?

Edited January 9, 2008 by SteveZ

[Gary Stevens]

First of all this is restricted to Level 1 matches only. Secondly, there must be an application of "common sense". I have used this myself, before it became legal I might say, to help a brand new shooter (read first match) when they have had a serious gun malfunction, or something that might set up a safety issue. Walking a new shooter through a double feed jam is better than having them jerking and pulling on parts of the gun not knowing what they are doing.

I have also allowed fathers (and once a mother) to go with me as I RO'd their child through their first match. The father was an experienced shooter and talked the young shooter through the course with no safety issues.

Everyone left safe and happy. The young shooter placed dead last, but left with a smile on thier face.

Not a very complicated issue all in all.

Gary

Edited January 9, 2008 by Gary Stevens

[zhunter]

First of all this is restricted to Level 1 matches only. Secondly, there must be an application of "common sense". I have used this myself, before it became legal I might say, to help a brand new shooter (read first match) when they have had a serious gun malfunction, or something that might set up a safety issue. Walking a new shooter through a double feed jam is better than having them jerking and pulling on parts of the gun not knowing what they are doing.

I have also allowed fathers (and once a mother) to go with me as I RO'd their child through their first match. The father was an experienced shooter and talked the young shooter through the course with no safety issues.

Everyone left safe and happy. The young shooter placed dead last, but left with a smile on thier face.

Not a very complicated issue all in all.

Gary

This is the intent I read into the new rule!!!

Yeah, what Gary said!!!

[Merlin Orr]

My "friends" are always coaching me through stages....if you consider comments like "Look out you clumsy fool" and "you missed everything but the No Shoot, Jackass" coaching...

I sure wish the RO would give them some sort of penalty.

[boz1911]

My "friends" are always coaching me through stages....if you consider comments like "Look out you clumsy fool" and "you missed everything but the No Shoot, Jackass" coaching...

I sure wish the RO would give them some sort of penalty.

Same friggin' coaches we have here in Georgia, 'cept they usually let everyone within 3 stages know also.......

[Chuck Anderson]

You would think that the folks making the rules would have realized by now that if the intent is not spelled out in the rule, it's not going to be followed (or probably even remembered a couple years down the road). Personally I think this is an extremely poorly written rule that gives some shooters an unfair advantage over others. I have no problem with a new shooter receiving support from the RO, or a family member or a coach. But giving a blanket authority to allow anyone to coach anyone sets up a challenge that is not the same for everyone. If I'm coaching an A class shooter through a stage and point out a piece of steel that he hit but didn't go down, how is that fair to the other A class shooter that now drops behind because he shot the stage straight up without assistance.

[Flexmoney]

Not a very complicated issue all in all.

Gary

Well...how about I complicated it a bit?

Does it get more complicated if the shooter that received coaching doesn't finish dead last? How about if that shooter beat a regular...who's goal for shooting is not to finish dead last? What if that shooter is a female (we want women in the sport too, right?)? What if that shooter is a big help setting up and running matches when there are there, but is discouraged from coming and shooting because they are trying not to finish dead last. What if that shooter was a certified RO? CRO? Works stats? Collects the money and keeps track of it? What if that person has worked as RO/CRO at a number of major matches? Do we want to risk pushing away an established asset?

I think there is an easy answer to all this. It would take some back-end work on EZ, but would just be a matter of clicking a button at the local match. We need an option in EZ that lets the shooter see their placement, but does not award them any match points. We need a "no score/coach-through/reshoot" button.

The results could look like the attached document. It would allow the shooter so see how they did, but would not unfairly reward points to those receiving help.

coach_through.doc

[Flexmoney]

You would think that the folks making the rules would have realized by now that if the intent is not spelled out in the rule, it's not going to be followed (or probably even remembered a couple years down the road). Personally I think this is an extremely poorly written rule that gives some shooters an unfair advantage over others. I have no problem with a new shooter receiving support from the RO, or a family member or a coach. But giving a blanket authority to allow anyone to coach anyone sets up a challenge that is not the same for everyone. If I'm coaching an A class shooter through a stage and point out a piece of steel that he hit but didn't go down, how is that fair to the other A class shooter that now drops behind because he shot the stage straight up without assistance.

Huge +1.

- I went to a "shoot-out" style match with one of my buddies a few years ago. He was tearing it up, and probably was going to finish in the money. He left a piece of steel and didn't see it...cost him a +5 second penalty. Nobody pointed it out to him. But, the RO did point it out when other shooters left a piece of steel up, allowing them to shoot it down and save time.

- I was at a classifier match at the end of last year. One GM shooter, on a multi-string Virginia count stage, had a mike into the hard-cover on his first string. He asked (between strings) his GM shooting buddy if it was worth the extra shot penalty to make it up. Coaching?

The rule is written to allow "common sense", but we ought to know that what we will get is subjectivity. Heck, we have already heard it here. Some have mentioned an A-class shooter shouldn't need any coaching. Others have mentioned a "good C-class" shooter should need it. Where do you draw the line?

I've seen this bubble up to the upper-level matches often enough. Some shooter will do something, and when they get called on it, their response is "that is how we do it at my home club."

I fear any time we start allow one thing at the local match, while not allowing it at a bigger match. We ought to be able to do better.

[mactiger]

Ah, fear not, for there is one simple way to fix this: Just say NO.

Wihout RO permission, there is no legal coaching.

Troy

[Gary Stevens]

Gee, where have I heard that before?

[Coolduckboy]

If every RO says No, then why have the rule at all?