Kimberkid Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 (edited) Preface: Dont ruin this thread by taking it political. Dont ruin it by rebutting. Dont get mad or flame me til you read all the way to the end with an open mind. Feel free to PM me a rebuttal if you can disagree with respect. It is like 4 am locally and I am fairly upset, so forgive me if I dont make clear concise thoughts, I will try my best. It begins: As gun owners, competitors and enthusiasts (dont EVER call me a "gun nut") I believe it is our civic duty to represent ourselves, our actions, and our sport in a light that best furthers our complete agenda. However, I have noticed a trend lately where a number of people seek to give away our own rights because they arent nessecary at that immediate moment. Recent threads on multiple websites about where match rules and CCW laws meet has caused me great anguish. Most all gun clubs now run "Cold Ranges". Why? We are not big boys enough to walk around with the guns that we swear to the whole public are safe? We must be allowed to carry throughout our daily lives because it is our 2nd ammendmant right, but we cant do it at the range because it is unsafe? Who was the first sellout to agree to this? Why would we ever let the public see us conduct ourselves this way? Is this the example we wish to set? So we run these cold ranges, but carry to the match (as we all should), where then do we crossover? Should we unarm ourselves at the car in the parking lot? I see someone crying out for a DQ. Or do we unarm at the safety area? I am certain we cant have live ammo in the safety area. Or do we just leave it on our person for the duration of the match? I am pretty confident we made a rule against that too. I hate it most of all when fellow shooters want to tell me about how I dont "need" a carry gun at a match, since we are all friends, nice guys, and honest people. I agree 1000% that my fellow shooters arent going to do anything that would harm my well being, however, it isnt them I worry about. It is the rogue criminal that comes to a match to steal or the carjacker on the way home that bothers me. I hope I dont represent myself as a paranoid, tin foil hat, screaming about the revolution type of crazy, but we are doing our own damage. We ought to be showing the public whole how safe guns are, how we can live in harmony with them, and that they are mere inanimate tools that are NOT evil in and of themselves. It is a very short step from us willfully disarming ourselves to the powers that be use our own example to disarm us permanantly. I do NOT expect to see any change. I know it wont happen. I get that somethings just are. I also understand the couple reasons why cold ranges exist, I just cannot possibly see how those reasons outweigh the contradictions. I also cannot understand how like minded people can suggest that we just go along with all this, dont argue, dont put up a fight, just go without protection for this short period of time. How you can justify the people who really insist that they cant trust fellow shooters to be responsibly armed. (I am not going to use the word "Uncle Toms" for a variety of reasons, though it is stuck in my head right now) A fellow forum member recently let his RO credential lapse and it is obvious this has caused him great turmoil. For that I am terribly sorry, as he has given as much to the sport as anyone on God's green earth. He has more than paid his debt and yet he feels bad about it. I have let my whole USPSA membership lapse, and while it causes me grief, I am finding less and less reasons to justify membership. My only hope for this thread is that we might all look a little closer at the message we send, through all our actions, to the whole of society. We send 2 messages with every choice we make. 1 message for choosing to act, and 1 message for not acting. I am sure there is more I wish to add, but I'll stop for now. Comment in accordance with forum rules, PM me if you wish to discuss. Edited December 30, 2007 by Kimberkid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 +100000% I carry hot to all matches, and when I help set up my local matches. I get some strange looks, but after getting a single stack nicked out of my truck AT THE RANGE while setting up I refuse to be unarmed!! Now I surely miss the S.S. but the thing that really bothered me was the fact that "someone" had a loaded .45 and misceif in his heart and all I had was my work gloves. Never again!! I have been called to task quite a few times about " your gun is cocked", or "you have a magazine in that thing" and I reply The match hasn't started yet so don't worry. I also get some strange looks when I ask if the match is officially over and then load right up! I agree !!! Kurt Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott R Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 You post this in the "What I Hate" forum and then ask for private rebuttal? If you want a discusion why not keep both sides of the issue in public? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 KK, You have hit the nail on the head...thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Preface: Dont ruin this thread by taking it political. Dont ruin it by rebutting. Dont get mad or flame me til you read all the way to the end with an open mind. Feel free to PM me a rebuttal if you can disagree with respect................Comment in accordance with forum rules, PM me if you wish to discuss. I Edited my comments to remain within forum rules. dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Big flaming rebuttal not posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
et45 Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 No rebuttal just a simple statement.Don't ask,don't tell and no one knows but you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 No rebuttal posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddy_fuentes Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 There are many sides to this coin, but we cannot discuss them if not 100% in accord. Too bad. Buddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 So we run these cold ranges, but carry to the match (as we all should), where then do we crossover? This is covered in the 2008 USPSA rulebook: 2.5.1 - If it is possible that some competitors arriving at a range where a USPSA match is being held may be in possession of a loaded firearm on their person (e.g. law enforcement officers, persons duly authorized to carry a loaded firearm, etc.), match organizers should provide an Unloading/Loading Station to enable such competitors to safely unload their firearms prior to entering the range, and to safely load their firearms again on departure from the range. The Unloading/Loading Station should be conveniently located outside the entrance to the range (or outside the portion of the range allocated to the USPSA match), it should be clearly sign-marked and it must include a suitable impact zone.2.5.2 - Where no Unloading/Loading station is provided, a competitor who arrives at a match in possession of a loaded firearm and proceeds immediately to a match official for the express purpose of safely unloading the firearm shall not be subject to disqualification per the provisions of Rule 10.5.13. I proposed this rule since I felt it would increase safety, as there will no longer be a temptation for persons to unload while in the car on the way to the range, or to do so in the car at the range while concurrently trying to practice the Monty Python art of not being seen. Also, note the choice of wording "Unloading/Loading" station. This rule was written to cover getting dressed to go home as well as preparing for the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberkid Posted December 30, 2007 Author Share Posted December 30, 2007 Rob, thanks for the update, I didnt know. My hate is less towards the (former) rules than to the people that actually substantiate the old line of thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 My hate is less towards the (former) rules than to the people that actually substantiate the old line of thought. What does this mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberkid Posted December 30, 2007 Author Share Posted December 30, 2007 (edited) While I am still mad that the USPSA used to (as I now learned from Mr. Boudrie) have rules that made it extremely difficult to excercise your legal right and (IMO) civic duty on match, I am less mad at that than I am the people who actually argue for not "needing" a carry gun during a match. This ties in with my hate for certain people who do "need" to always be armed, but are happy to let me know that I dont. I am not a big fan of other people making my personal safety choices for me. I will never understand how pro gun people can promote going without guns anywhere. et45~ I agree with you and I know a number of people who do that. However, that in a way allows the problem to exist. If we all just find ways around a problem, rather than face and solve it, the problem still exists. Edited December 30, 2007 by Kimberkid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Ok thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Suber Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 I have a CWP and carry all the time (either a 1911 Colt or a Khar K40). I use a paddle holster for the .45 or a fanny pack for the 40 so that I can remove either pistol when necesary (there are a lot of places I go that I am not allowed to carry). It is no big deal for me to remove my handgun when arriving at the range for a match. Quite honestly, there are other places that I really get worried (malls, etc). Not being able to carry concealed at USPSA match - I don't think is a big deal. As I pull up to the range, pistol comes off and goes into the glove compartment or under the seat. USPSA competitors are not the ones I am worried about. Besides, if I am shooting LTD or L10, I don't use the same pistols anyway. The thing we all need to remember is safety. The success of our sport is based on our history of safety. Think about it. In this day and age, if we had an accident with a "run and gun sport", the anti-gun media would be all over us. For that reason, we have to demonstrate what appears to be excessive control and safety at our matches. I am constantly running into people who "can not believe" what I do for fun on the weekend. They "can't believe it is legal." Here is an example of when our safety rules made a difference. At our Toys for Tots match a couple of weeks ago, one of our local TV stations finally came out to cover our match. This station has a liberal bias and was oposed to our State's CWP bill. Apparently, the guy walked around and observed the match for a few minutes before bringing out the camera and interviewing me (I was watching a squad when someone called me and told me that the TV crew was there. They never told me they were coming though I did invite them). I have no idea how long he was walking around the range before he brought the camera out. After the usual questions about the match and Toys for Tots, he asked about the sport and safety. He told me that he did not know what to expect when he arrived and that he was VERY impressed at the safety and oversight of competitors at the match. Though I did not see the story on the news, my wife said it was VERY positive coverage - something unusual for this TV station with stories related to guns. I wonder if he would have had the same impression if he had seen everyone carrying loaded weapons and/or handling firearms at our vehicles. After the match, I received several inquiries from people who saw the story on the news and wanted more info about USPSA. Next week will be the test, to see if those who inquired show up at our monthly match. Remember, we know how to handle our firearms. We will constantly be fighting against those that want to take our right away from us and/or kill our sport. We need to do whatever possible to prevent this group from having "ammo" to use against us. So, a little inconvenience for me to be able to shoot a couple of hundred rounds at a match with friends is no big deal to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 This ties in with my hate for certain people who do "need" to always be armed, but are happy to let me know that I dont. Bingo. Fortunately, there are no circumstances in USPSA rules or match procedure where we make any such statement, direct or implied. While I am still mad that the USPSA used to No need to direct any of that anger at the current board, and there were absolutely no objections to that rule when I proposed it. John Amidon and the rules committee did some tweaking of the words, but managed to capture the exact intent of what I requested be added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Is this thread still in the What I Hate forum ??????? OK, then no rebuttal just another statement: Carry wherever you feel you need to ... and deal with the consequences on your own time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreblePlink Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 No rebuttal, several thoughtful points have been made. It has crossed my mind - WHAT IF. What if we took in a new, semi-rambo shooter for a match, who turned out to be a total psycho and tried to commit major violence to a squad during a match? A few would probably suffer gsw, but I think he would be stopped in about two seconds, even with everybody unloaded and holstered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Suber Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 No rebuttal, several thoughtful points have been made. It has crossed my mind - WHAT IF. What if we took in a new, semi-rambo shooter for a match, who turned out to be a total psycho and tried to commit major violence to a squad during a match? A few would probably suffer gsw, but I think he would be stopped in about two seconds, even with everybody unloaded and holstered. I think the psychos who intend to commit such an act specifically look for places where people are not armed - easy prey. I think the last place someone would try something like that is a USPSA match. The response would be overwhelming.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Yes Jack, but I've seen shooters get mad about incurring a penalty and throw things ...... I've even heard of a new shooter getting so mad he threw his GUN across the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bufit323 Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 A few would probably suffer gsw, but I think he would be stopped in about two seconds, even with everybody unloaded and holstered. Exactly, I think that several people in the squad would be capable of loading and returning fire quite rapidly, especially since this stranger is not likely a high level shooter (this example of a psycho states that we do not know the guy). I suspect he may get 1 or 2 shots off after breaking the 180, after that he would be perforated/ventilated pretty quickly. It would suck to be the one getting shot though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sestock Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 (edited) [edit] Edited December 30, 2007 by Flexmoney moronic statement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 As this thread violates hate forum guidelines, specifically: Hate rants involving shooters, firearms, or shooting related manufacturers, such as but not limited to - IPSC, IDPA, USPSA, the NRA, or Match Directors - are NOT PERMITTED.If your hate rant has to do with shooting then it needs to be directed towards yourself. I'm sorry for this restriction, which may restrict a few reasonable hate rants. Overall, the moderating staff does not feel it's appropriate for the forum's content or well being in general. CLOSED Due to the volume of responses, individual pms will not be sent. If anyone has a question, feel free to drop me a pm. Thank You! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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