North Posted December 22, 2007 Share Posted December 22, 2007 How important is having the 20 round mags now that USPSA has decreed the 8 round max array? I know before with the 9 round arrays having the 20 rounders gave you some room for error for two arrays, but now having the 18-19 round mags should be plenty. except for the odd 20 round stage. It would seem that this change to 8 round arrays has really changed the limited game. Heck the 45 ACP could be a player in limited now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted December 22, 2007 Share Posted December 22, 2007 I still run into the occasional stage where having 20+1 in the gun allows me to skip a reload or have insurance shots on a stage with steel. Reloads on the run are not "free" - if they were, you'd probably see some champion shooters using single stack guns from their sponsors in the Limited Nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted December 22, 2007 Share Posted December 22, 2007 You are falling into the trap of assuming that every target array will be 8 rounds. Were all the other target arrays you ever saw 9 rounds? I often throw low round count views/arrays into the mix on my stage designs just to give the shooter something else to work on while solving the "how do I shoot this stage" puzzle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 22, 2007 Share Posted December 22, 2007 Some real good observations here. FWIW, I've run a bunch of shooters. I've seldom heard complaints about having too much ammo. I have heard all kinda of laungage when they run out of ammo trying to hit a steel plate, however. On the flip side of that, I have seen shooters stuff that one extra round in their magazine...making it hard to seat. Sometimes, that can make the gun jam up...make the mags hard to seat during a reload (and drop out while firing)...wear out mag springs...and, possibly crack the plastic grip from having too much pressure wedged on the mag catch. It's nice to have to option to load them up. Good stage design will test you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted December 22, 2007 Share Posted December 22, 2007 I'm kind of bummed about the 8 round deal... I liked to throw in a piece of steey here and there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted December 22, 2007 Share Posted December 22, 2007 ........On the flip side of that, I have seen shooters stuff that one extra round in their magazine...making it hard to seat. Sometimes, that can make the gun jam up...make the mags hard to seat during a reload (and drop out while firing)...wear out mag springs...and, possibly crack the plastic grip from having too much pressure wedged on the mag catch..... That ONE extra round has cost me big in two (major) matches. I called it bad luck the first time but now I call it a lesson learned. Well learned! I can find a place and load a mag much quicker than I can squeeze on an empty chamber, rack the gun and squeeze on an empty chamber AGAIN then dump the salt shaker'ed mag - reload - rack and finally start where I left off. That is if the top of my head has not blown off yet...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vrmn1 Posted December 22, 2007 Share Posted December 22, 2007 Being primarily a revolver shooter I wish they would make it 6 rounds max. That said when I do shoot limited I want my 20 rd mags. I may only load 19 in them most times but I want the option. This may (thats a big may) level the playing field a small amount between 17-18 rd 45's and 20 rd 40's but not by much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DVC247 Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 When I saw the title of this thread, "20 Round mags obsolete?", I thought you were talking about the upcoming 3rd generation SV frames and their 22 +1 mags..................... I can run from Point A to Point B faster than I can run from Point A to Point B while reloading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 I can run from Point A to Point B faster than I can run from Point A to Point B while reloading. Not to be argumentive...hehe So that extra 1 or 2 loaded rounds is going to finish you up at point B? Or..will you just do a standing reload at point B rather than doing it when you are moving to point B? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 (edited) lazy course design will just throw 4 targets in each position. We shot it no less than three times today. Better course design goes something like 2,3,3,2 so you can have a free flowing 20 round course a 10 round guy can win with one load. 3,3,3 doesn't help anyone but wheelies, and 4,4,4 is just, well ...... dumb. Edited December 23, 2007 by dirtypool40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Posted December 23, 2007 Author Share Posted December 23, 2007 (edited) OK, Obsolete was a bad choice of words. How about not as critcal as they used to be. I guess time will tell, but it would appear that a 17-18 round 45acp would be just as competitive now. That would get you though at lest 2 arrays before you have to reload with 1-2 extra rounds. Odds are both guns would be reloaded after two arrays. Sure their will be stages that the 20 rounders will help, but that shouldn't be the norm. The 8 round array doesn't start until Jan 1. I'm not giving up my 20 rounders by the way. Edited December 23, 2007 by North Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 I'm kind of bummed about the 8 round deal... I liked to throw in a piece of steey here and there. And you can't do that now, why? Are you married to the "multiples of 8" approach to stage design? Even if you are, a position with two paper and four steel can be interesting..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Posted December 23, 2007 Author Share Posted December 23, 2007 From the 2008 rule book 1.2.1 General Courses of Fire: 1.2.1.1 “Short Courses” must not require more than 8 rounds to complete and no more than 2 shooting locations. 1.2.1.2 “Medium Courses” must not require more than 16 rounds to complete and no more than 3 shooting locations. Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view. 1.2.1.3 “Long Courses” in Level III or higher matches must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 I'm kind of bummed about the 8 round deal... I liked to throw in a piece of steey here and there. And you can't do that now, why? Are you married to the "multiples of 8" approach to stage design? Even if you are, a position with two paper and four steel can be interesting..... No. I'm not tied to any one design. What I used to like to do is find a spot for a single that would often get passed up. For some reason that single tends to get passed more if it's in an array with 4 papers. I don't know why it's just something that I've found to be true. I do think it can limit stage design as well. I like the fact that you have more to shoot from one look. If you have a dif opinion that's fine, but this is mine. ~Sorry for the drift topic starter~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 If you've got 17, 18, or 19 round mags, use them. You most likely won't suffer for it. Having 20 will, once in a while, be a benefit. Probably better to spend the $100 on practice ammo than to buy a 20 round mag if you don't need another mag, though. DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 Finding a single place to reload on a stage allows my "limited" brain capacity to focus on other aspects of the course of fire. That doesn't mean I will load my mags to 20 rounds. I normally load to 18 and the COF will dictate any other adjustment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 yet another reason to shoot my glock 21 in limited... 17+1 is plenty if you dont have 2 9 round arrays. it makes it easier on the single stack guys because it leaves them short-stroked if they have to do two 9 round arrays back to back. somehow, i know that is the REAL reason the rule changed from 9 to 8.. Harmon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 For all the new kids... You can go back and read threads from when before Vince left here to run his own forum... USPSA had the Red rule book, at 8 rounds. IPSC went to 9 rounds. When our USPSA green book came out, we...following IPSC's lead...ended up with 9 rounds. I've made many an argument for 8 rounds...no need to repeat that here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 I run a 21+1 Para reloading to 20 round mags. My wife runs a 20+1 G35 reloading to 19 round mags. Trying to shove an extra round in the reload mag is just asking for trouble. I've had the extra ammo in the Para come into play once in the last 3 years. I think it was a hallway type stage and the S_I shooters had a standing reload where I was able to shoot everything and reload on the move to the next array. Even on 22 round stages I don't have a real advantage since there has always been a place to reload on the move and a 22 round stage is unusual anyway. Mostly I just drop mags that still have 3+ rounds in them. The main thing about extra ammo IMHO is it gives you more options on where to reload, which is always a good thing. With 21+1 it's also nice to know I can take a couple of make-up shots without throwing the plan out of whack. When I shot L-10, a single make-up was possible, but a couple of them killed the plan completely and would usually result in a standing reload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 Just another reason to leave the short & weak and shoot a real gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Posted December 24, 2007 Author Share Posted December 24, 2007 Just another reason to leave the short & weak and shoot a real gun. What? Are you talking about Bender's blue glock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted December 25, 2007 Share Posted December 25, 2007 I thought .45s got around 15 or so in a 140 STI tube. That certainly means a potential reload situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Posted December 25, 2007 Author Share Posted December 25, 2007 Kingman, From the STI site. Stock mag 140 mm length - .40, 10 mm, etc. 17 140 mm length - .45, .450, etc. 14 You might be able to get 16 in a STI; but I think you are right. It is still a 40SW S_I game for the Limited folks. You just don't need to have a 20 round mag for most stages now, But it could come in handy. However I have seen 17 rounds of 45 ACP in a para and heard of 18. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted December 25, 2007 Share Posted December 25, 2007 North, that is what I was thinking If you get 16 in the gun start with a .45 shooting 8+8 set ups leaves you dry. The .40 you still have some for make up shots etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 25, 2007 Share Posted December 25, 2007 I recall guys getting 18 with the P14-45 and Dawson pads....been a while though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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