Flatland Shooter Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Though some may consider the USPSA buying the Steel Challenge an opportunity to add a new treasure to the old gun safe, I really don't know what type of "open" gun is really ideal for shooting steel. What do we want? Something light weight for fast handling? Just a light slide and comp, but also a lightweight frame? And since the number of rounds needed for a string is somewhat limited and at times those plates look awfully small, would this be a good game for .45 ACP loaded light? Please share your insight, or better yet your experience. Thanks. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 I just shoot my IPSC open blaster with my good old major loads. If you do a search there is some info in the Steel Challenge part of the forum about Open blasters. I recall someone posting about using your regular major load but substituting one of the light .380 ACP bullets. I tried that and it worked fine, but I am not good enough on steel to really bother. A dedicated Steel Challenge open gun can get a bit on the expensive side. I know Matt McLearn is making them without a comp with a Scheuman barrel with ports out the wazoo. Not long ago his personal SC gun was for sale. Others are using open guns with small comps, light slides, and so forth. Light is the operative word. As for a .45, I seldom see those because a minor pf bullet just lumbers along and most shooters seem to prefer faster feed back from the sights, a snappier impulse, and faster audible feed back. Yeah, I know if you call the shot you don't need the audible feed back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Buy anything that makes you happy and we will tell you wife you ...Need it. But If your gun is built rite it will run on light loads. Benny built my new IPSC gun and it ran on my steel loads the first day. I have seen Dawson guns run on steel load new too. What do you give up or gain in an eight stages of world event having a custom gun ? In all 8 stages the time you gain or louse is less than ...( One Extra Shot) to make up a sloppy one. Max won this year with his IPSC gun. Would I give up my steel gun NO I think if you wanted the ultimate dedicated steel gun you would get a single stack with a light slide a C-more and a two port comp with one Pop pole. with a hot light bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 You need a reliable gun that works 110% of the time and that you can draw well with. It then needs to group well with your ammo at 35yds. Then you need to have a bunch of the ammo because you will burn up a buttload of it practicing and shooting matches. If I had to pick it would be reliable first, and then the accurate load 2nd. You also dont need a major load due to the steel just needs a hit, and some Major .40 loads and all major Open gun loads are really hard on steel, whether it is hardened steel or mild steel. We cap the Velocity on open gun loads at 1300fps, and that seems to work well. Speed kills steel.....FWIW think if you wanted the ultimate dedicated steel gun you would get a single stack with a light slide a C-more and a two port comp with one Pop pole. with a hot light bullet. that is good advice as well, and that is the dedicated steel gun I had built last year and is at the plater's right now too.... Regards, DougC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 I'm just hoping that USPSA doesn't screw with any of the divisions at the Steel Challenge and throw in crap like classes and more rules. It's a great match as is. Soooo....as for a steel challenge gun, reliability is paramount. Accuracy is definitely a close second. Light and fast after that! Practice is everything for this match though. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 I'm just hoping that USPSA doesn't screw with any of the divisions at the Steel Challenge and throw in crap like classes and more rules. It's a great match as is. Rich Lets stay on topic here...the question here is about the gun. Anything else needs to go in the other thread. - Admin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Steel Challenge gun: Any gun that is used in USPSA can be used for the steel challenge as others have said, needs to cycle reliably with minor loads. The 45 acp running minor can be sluggish in the slide movement. There are a lot of theories, but what feels best for you will work best for you. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 We have always got a good number of shooters using their 1911's at the local Steel Challenge match. I use a Glock, with 9 rounds in the mags. It happens to be a pretty light gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 My steel gun is an STI frame with a Gov slide cut to commander and very light, Schueman commander hybrid barrel with 2 small holes drilled by me and a big ball cut down the bottom to remove weight, Ti comp and hollow guiderod. It was 32oz and for me was too light, it was moving all over the place. I replaced the Ti comp with a 2 port steel one which helped. It will shoot 95's at about 1000 fps with Clays but it feels sluggish so I shoot 115's. I think next year I'll run a tungsten guiderod and maybe a steel magwell to try and damp down my adrenalin. I shot really good times (for me) on the practice range. I shot it straight through, no cheating twice before the match in the low to mid 90's but the match is a whole differnt deal and we don't need to reopen that wound. The guns of the super squad run the gamut. I was on a couple of the practice bays when BJ came through, and though I didn't ask, his gun looked like a full size open gun as did Max's & KC's, but then TJ's gun looks like it will float. Its been said many time before and it starts, its not the arrow......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Looks like I have a use for that STI Stinger that has been in the safe for the last couple of years. I am going to give it a try with the Radical Precision Hyper Comp topend. What do you think Venry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Light guns are very popular at the SC, but as Max and BJ and the others showed, it doesn't take anything but an IPSC Open gun to win Open-- I swap out the tungsten guide rod and heavy magwell on mine for light versions of both, and drop in lighter springs, but that's about it. 9mm is a popular caliber for open guns since the practice range is pretty much lost-brass as well. For the iron-sight divisions, 9mm is very popular, but again, anything will work--- fast double-taps aren't key in steel, it's getting the gun to the next plate and stopping it there long enough to hit it. If you think about it some, even full on Major loads don't give much, if anything up on that either-- the main reason I download is practice is so much softer and quieter, and shot-calling is a little easier; I can run the same times with either Major or Minor loads on most all the stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mscott Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 You also dont need a major load due to the steel just needs a hit, and some Major .40 loads and all major Open gun loads are really hard on steel, whether it is hardened steel or mild steel. We cap the Velocity on open gun loads at 1300fps, and that seems to work well. Speed kills steel... Regards, DougC Is the 1300fps a club rule or a SC rule? That would not allow a lot of guys to use their USPSA 9mm open guns right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Putting on my cap as director of a local Steel Challenge club and as one of the directors of the BIG DAWG steel match.......You will not come to our matches with Open gun loads over 1300fps. If you do and we chrono you, we will tell you thanks for playing but not on our steel. Factory .40 is also really hard on regular steel. It is in the match application. The American Handgunner has a ban on hollowpoints, and I cant find my match book, there might be a velocity cap as well. I personally own my SC targets, and the BIG DAWG targets are paid for as well. they were done locally and are not the T series of hardened steel that my budget wouldnt allow. Velocity is more of a detriment to the steel than bullet diameter or composition. Action Targets has some info on their website, and I went to one of their classes and got a binder full of info. Short version is that the heat from the bullet striking the target starts to take the treatment or "hardness" of the steel out of it. Hence, faster bullets impart more energy, heat, and the steel gets beat up faster. Hell, I used to run 88gr jhps at 1380 for steel.....until I did some research and looked at my own targets..... Now having said all that. I dont think the parent organization of SC has a velocity cap, but then they are using at least T400 on the steel targets that will handle the major loads for a longer time, but the major loads will damage them sooner, and the steel aint cheap! I dont know what will be put out down the road, but I know that to keep us shooting SC around here we have to take it easy on the steel we have. I do realize that a lot of people have worked up good loads that run 100% in their open guns and will want to shoot the same thing for SC. It will take a realization that it is a different game with different parameters. You are not knocking down a popper at 35yds, you just have to ring the steel with a hit. Having said that, isnt load experimentation half the fun..... Regards, DougC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 (edited) Speaking of American Handgunner, didn't Angus Hobdel win that? I know his steel gun is an open 9mm "Champion" model that comes from the CZ factory with a 3 port factory comp and a factory 1.75 lb SA trigger (Vlad used to have one & I shot it quite a bit). I think Angus might have modified his with a dot sight and maybe popple holes. Good choice for a steel gun would appear to be a CZ 9mm. Edited December 14, 2007 by Carlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Just about anything you have is a good choice for a Steel Challenge gun. Including revolvers and .22's...those good old single-stack Open IPSC guns of days-of-lore...BHP's...etc. Five steel targets, and you don't have to knock anything over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted December 14, 2007 Author Share Posted December 14, 2007 Thanks everyone for their input. I have several "old" (1985 vintage) open guns in .45 ACP that were target drivers in the good old days and 100% reliable. I went through my notes and found reference to a "light" .45 load (PF = 130) that I used a while back when I was introducing several friends to the sport. I do remember it running the slide a little slow, but heck, it can't run any slower than me. Again, thanks for the input. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronjbush12 Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 I do remember it running the slide a little slow, but heck, it can't run any slower than me. The "slow" you have to be concerned about is the time it takes the bullet to reach the plate and make the "ding". Of course we call our shots but having one plate go ding when you are shooting another is a bit distracting. If you are going to run .45 try to find the lightest bullet you can at a resonable velocity (like around 1000fps. When I did it (18 years ago) with a .45 I think I had some kind of 155g bullet at about 950fps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 I use 155's in my 45 still to this day. I have an old school comp gun that also was used to shoot bullseye, the thing is a tack driver with those 155's and the comp works. Though get some funny looks from some people at a bullseye match . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 I use 155's in my 45 still to this day. I have an old school comp gun that also was used to shoot bullseye, the thing is a tack driver with those 155's and the comp works. Though get some funny looks from some people at a bullseye match . Bob, I thought you got funny looks at all matches!!!!! and that is better than looking funny at matches. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 (edited) The clock at the big shoot stops when the "Stop Plate" gets hit and moves back to hit a switch. The Hang time on the bullet flight on just the stop plates at steel challenge is over 1.5 seconds. I can cut that down to 1.1 by using a faster bullet Steel is all about the math and cutting out errors I still have not shot the match as fast with my 8 shot rev as I did with my 7 shot rev. Just plain not screwing up is great shooting. NO mater what gun you shoot Edited December 14, 2007 by AlamoShooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ong45 Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 This one weighs in at 38.5 oz. Aluminum comp on a bushing barrel (9mm). A few slots cut into the slide and a bit of internal lightening too. Shooting a 95 gr. mg going about 1000 fps. with a 7 lb. recoil spring. Download whatever you have and give it a go. If the slide seems slow you might have to experiment with the recoil spring. You could spring it down to a certain degree. You can find a sweet spot in the... slide weight / recoil spring weight / load - ratio. My major open gun runs well with a 9 lb. spring and a 130- 140 pf. The limited major gun too with almost the same parameters as above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Hey allan you know me. When I shot steel often I was using the 95 grainers at about 1250. If you balance the powder you can get enough volume to really still work the comp. I mean obviously downloading like this the same powder you would use in your 115gr load at 1490 is not going to work as well. I will try to pull more data. I am actually putting back together a steel gun I used to shoot. It is a commander slide, bbl, bbl ports, short comp, single stack frame 9mm with a serendipity. it will weigh very little. All from parts laying around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted December 15, 2007 Share Posted December 15, 2007 How did you get the comp so clean James? or are these phoots of the gun right out of the shop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ong45 Posted December 15, 2007 Share Posted December 15, 2007 How did you get the comp so clean James? or are these phoots of the gun right out of the shop? SAND BLASTER !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 15, 2007 Share Posted December 15, 2007 I figured those 95g bullets didn't have enough lead in them to dirty up the comp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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