Rocket Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 I've been trying to get faster , but struggle to maintain accuracy when the gun really starts jumping. I was wondering what I should be striving to see during rapid fire drills. I was shooting some 10 yd. Bill drills today and noticed that my front site seemed to be just a red streak that I was trying to time as it came back down on the A zone. Sometimes the timing worked , sometimes it didn't. Do I need to practice more at timing or just change what I'm seeing. Is it possible, with practice, to see the front site sharply focused all the way through the guns cycle or should I just be looking to pick it up again after it comes back to rest ? It seems kind of awkward to lift your eyes off the target to follow the front site up and down. What do you guys think ? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 It's simple, but not easy. You need to learn what is an acceptable sight picture for each shot. We'd all agree that to draw and hit a target at 3 yards requires a different sight picture than a 6 inch plate at 25 yards. The same is true for bill drills, el prezzes (is that the right abbreviated plural for el prez?) and any other standard drill. My suggestion for the bill drill... Start with a 3-4 second par time and do 20 of them with all A's, with the goal of using all the time, NOT beating it. It will get easy quick. Now, whittle that par time down, striving to see the same "stuff" you saw on the slow easy ones. Two questions... 1. Have you read Brian's book? 2. Are you dry firing regularly? you will also benefit from Burkett's timing drill of firing into the backstop with no target, jus watching the gun. You really have to learn to see the recoil arc as a continual sight picture. Hard to explain, (like leading with eyes) but a Eureka moment is in your future... SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBurkett Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 "you will also benefit from Burkett's timing drill of firing into the backstop with no target, jus watching the gun." Steve, the above is just a drill to feel the recoil and relax behind the gun. The timing drills are very different. Anyone can review them either on my website or in PSV4. Take care and Happy Easter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket Posted April 20, 2003 Author Share Posted April 20, 2003 Thanks for the reply Steve Right now I'm seeing the recoil arc as a blur , and as the blur comes back down I release another shot. This is only when going at a pretty good clip like less than .2 splits . On my longer / tighter shots I let the blur come to a complete stop and regain a good site picture. I was just wondering if I should be seeing everything better in recoil meaning not as a blur but a sharper image of the front site as it jumps up and down. I guess the other way would be to ignore the blur and just look for the snap shot of a site picture to re-appear where I was looking. Things to try I guess. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket Posted April 20, 2003 Author Share Posted April 20, 2003 Hey Matt , you replied while I was typing . Thankyou also . I have your DVD's and love em. Keep up the great work !! Happy Easter to all Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 Rocket, I would guess that you need to see the front sight MORE. You mention in your first post that you are looking at the target. Try focusing on the front sight...try to see it travel thru the recoil arc. Leave the target blurry. It would be very slow to switch your focus to the target, then back to the front sight, on each and every shot. I really like Steve's advice on shooting into the back-stop...nothing to aim at. Just try seeing the front sight as much as possible. Relax and see what happens. Same thing here: My suggestion for the bill drill... Start with a 3-4 second par time and do 20 of them with all A's, with the goal of using all the time, NOT beating it. It will get easy quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted April 20, 2003 Share Posted April 20, 2003 Ditto on Flex's post. Seems to me like a lot of newer shooters mess up on their fire control when they "try" to go fast. Is the problem what you see or is it in how you maniupulate the trigger? My bet would be a little of each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket Posted April 21, 2003 Author Share Posted April 21, 2003 Ron I think it's what I'm not seeing , but I can't say for certain my trigger control at high speed is perfect either . Many times I find my shots at high speed are grouped very close together , but in the wrong spot if that tells you anything. I've been practicing groups at 25 yds. and plate racks at 25 yds. and have been getting pretty good at shot calling during slow fire . My 5 shot groups at 25 yds. are around 4-5 inches off hand which is a big improvement for me. At least some off the time my trigger control is ok. I think Flex is right in that I need to see the front site MORE . It was a big revelation for me when the other day I tried head shots at 15 yds , keeping the front site centered and just changing it's orientation in the rear notch , it really only made a small difference in point of impact as long as the front site was kept in the middle of the target. I was just wondering what I need to focus on to place accurate shots when really hammering. I'm going to try to just keep my eyes glued to the front site for awhile and just see what happens. Maybe after getting a better feel for what the gun is doing , I can shift my focus back towards the target. Hey I thought golf was a mind game. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 The cadence drill in Burkett v 4 would also help. 1-1000, 2-1000, 3-1000, etc...then faster. Matt, Oops. BTW, thanks for the 9mm load tip. 3.3 of 310 under the 147 is like buttah. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecutts Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 I was just wondering what I need to focus on to place accurate shots when really hammering. It's been said here many times. Aim small, miss small, now doing it at speed requires the ability to know what you need to see to hit what you need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket Posted April 21, 2003 Author Share Posted April 21, 2003 I think that Cadence drill is great at least for getting transitions quicker. I mentioned this somewhere else but since Matt looked in earlier I'll tell the story again. About 3 weeks ago I was practicing the Cadence drill at closely spaced targets just messing around and trying to really ramp up the speed , like 6 shots at 3 targets in under 2 seconds at around 5-7 yds. After doing that for awhile , I decided to try some el prez's at 10 yds. , but just keep the cadence the same . My best time up till then had been around 6.09 / 49 pts. in practice . What came next was really mind blowing . On my first pass came a 4.94 sec / 50 pt. run with my limited 40 . That was even with mediocre 1.5 draw and 1.4 reload times . Hey, I'm a D shooter. Well I tried , but couldn't repeat it , but I did have some follow-up runs in the mid 5 sec. range. While it was a thrill to crank it up that fast , I really want to do this right and take one step at a time and get the accuracy thing down before I progress . I want to see my sites and call my shots while I'm doing runs like that. Then I'll feel good about it. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 Bill: A "D" class shooter? Not for long from the looks of it. Low to mid five second runs with good hits are about what I do on demand and I am a long way from D class. I think the guys have nailed it. You just need to see what you need to see to make the shot, then make the shot without disturbing the relationship of pistol to target, follow through and call the shot, watch the sight lift and return, then repeat the process. When I shoot well, I am aware of the relationship of the sights to each other and to the target face at all times. Even if everything isn't in perfect alignment, you can learn to read where the hit will go and watch the sight lift. If you are looking at the target faces at ten yards and seeing the sights peripherally, you have one awesome index. I am with Flex, learn to see the sights and watch them through the entire arc. It will pay off in the long haul when you need to make difficult shots and call them with certainty. For a change of pace try the Neuvo El Pres. That one really makes you get it together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket Posted April 21, 2003 Author Share Posted April 21, 2003 Ron Those runs came at the end of a long practice session when I was really in the zone. I just took what I was doing with the cadence drills and extended it a bit. My index and technique is not refined enough to do that sort of thing on demand or in a match yet , but I'll hopefully get there. I did shot the Nuevo El Pres in a match recently. It was my highest percentage classifier thus far. I slowed way down and shot it (limited) at 8.80 / 53 pts. with no penalties. It came back at 56% . I think the HHF on that one is a bit high because its basically the same HHF as El Prez , but it's much more difficult with the no shoots and hard cover thrown in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBurkett Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 Well I tried , but couldn't repeat it LOL, well umm, don't try next time. Think Yoda. He was right. Part of the reason you were able to do it the first time is that you didn't try to do anything. You just did. Most likely your not allowing yourself to let go and step up to the next level. while it was a thrill to crank it up that fast , I really want to do this right and take one step at a time and get the accuracy thing down before I progress . I want to see my sites and call my shots while I'm doing runs like that. Then I'll feel good about it. Most of the time when people crank it up, they will start seeing new things at that level. Try pushing yourself for a bit, then take a small step back and see whats new. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket Posted April 21, 2003 Author Share Posted April 21, 2003 Thanks for the encouragement Matt . I'll try ,or rather I'll do it. I must admit , going that fast is a hell of allot of fun. I just want the points too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 I think I know where Rocket is coming from, but don't try to do this unless you succeed I have been having terrible trouble with Bianchi plates the last 6 months. No consistancy. Everyone is telling me to slow down. I go way to fast. We had an indepth training session with a real coach. He made me shoot plates without the end time. We had to make sure all the plates were down time unlimited. Just concentrate on the dot centred in tube and centred on plate. So I shot 4 straight plate matches all slightly over time and all went down. Thats 192 straight. Swell, I was happy. Next week I went to the range to put the theory into practice and see what happened. First run clean. 48 down. Next run I forgot to load the chamber. Pistol came out of the holster and the safety was already off and hammer was down. I just racked the round up and knocked all six down in plenty of time. I just DID IT. I bet it looked good. Don't ask me to demonstrate. AS Yoda says "just let go". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 Rocket, Not trying to be a smart ass, but it should be as sharp as it needs to be. Your goal is the "A" hit. Many factors will play a role in that decision. Distance, target, shooting platform, your next target (transition), possible movement, "the zone", etc... All of these factors affect only one mental task, your visual patience. Your individual visual patience will be a product of your experience. As Matt said earlier, (paraphrasing) you need to constantly expand the 3 dimensional sphere around you. Humans are creatures of comfort and habit. If you don't try to expand your sphere it will collapse on you. Kinda like the analogy, you either get better of worse, you never stay the same. Similar to the sphere, it either expands or contracts it never stays the same. Get out of your comfort zone. If you don't find the edge AND go over it, (crash/burn a stage) you'll never know your limitations. Here's another Yodism, "Do or do not, there is no try." The more you get on the edge, the more comforable you'll feel, and before you know it, the edge will suddenly become middle and you'll be looking forward to the next edge. Good shooting, Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 . . . I decided to try some el prez's at 10 yds. , but just keep the cadence the same . My best time up till then had been around 6.09 / 49 pts. in practice . What came next was really mind blowing . On my first pass came a 4.94 sec / 50 pt. run with my limited 40 . That was even with mediocre 1.5 draw and 1.4 reload times . Hey, I'm a D shooter. Well I tried , but couldn't repeat it , but I did have some follow-up runs in the mid 5 sec. range. D-Class? Sub-six second El Prez runs on demand? Don't get too attached to D-Class . . . or C. Or probably B. As one of the many "Will Be C-Class For Life"ers, I dream of some day shooting a sub-six second El Prez. My best time so far in a match has been 10.26 seconds with most of the points. Of course, it takes me roughly five seconds to get turned around! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBurkett Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 rhino, Hey if your Icon is right, 5 seconds is an awesome turn around time! Bear and everyone. I think the issue is not having discernable levels of difference between no info and too much from the FS. Most people think they see the sights or not. Thats all. Yet there are many different ways of shooting the sights all dependent on our vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Hey if your Icon is right, 5 seconds is an awesome turn around time! Well, I'm not blue (usually) and I tend to get around on my hind legs most of the time. Other than that . . . I suspect my El Pres times would improve if: 1. I practiced* 2. I quit looking at the targets waiting to see the holes *BigDave & twix are trying to corrupt me in that regard. I don't want to practice, but they're going to force me to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 I think the issue is not having discernable levels of difference between no info and too much from the FS. Most people think they see the sights or not. Thats all. Yet there are many different ways of shooting the sights all dependent on our vision. Well said. You must look at or at least "to" the target in order to find it (so your gun will go there), but once the gun is on the target there's no reason to keep looking at it (with irons). This is what "keep your eyes moving" implies. Once the gun is pointed at the target, your brain gets more accurate information about where the gun is precisely pointed if you're looking RIGHT AT the front site, and the target is seen peripherally. I've shot some really up-close, quick runs while seeing the front site in PERFECT focus on each shot. Of course this is not necessary on many stages, but even when it wasn't "necessary," I've always shot quicker and more accurately when I called the shots with precision, at the instant each and every one fired. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistolPete Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 I must say reading this post has been very informative. I'm trying to get as much info as possible to become a better shooter. Reading this info is very insightful and very useful. Keep the pointers coming. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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