Reloading the gun...

[ong45]

So far I haven't heard any argument that makes clear why we don't look at the gun during drawing, but look at the gun during reloading...

I think reloading is by an order of magnitude more complicated than drawing the gun.

There is merit in what your playing with, imagine if you can feel as well as see everything you do . More input yeah?

Using your observations maybe i could try to shoot without looking at the sights..........

oops, i alredy do that

Edited November 5, 2007 by ong45

[Catfish]

It's eye movement, not head one.

Exactly! I too was skeptical of a higher reload like I learned from TT. A higher reload means less gun movement, #1, and then less head movement as Skywalker pointed out. Until I tested it using video and a timer, I wouldn't have changed what I was doing.

Really the only way to end your debate is to put it to the clock and test it. We should never stop learning!

[G-ManBart]

I think that by not watching the mag well, if only for a split second, you are relegating yourself to not performing at your peak.

Flex, Anderson, TT, Jake are all GMs. Do you really think they would do something on purpose to slow themselves down?

Good point there. I was watching one of Saul Kirsch's videos and he suggested putting a red dot with a marker on the magwell insert. I did it and it seems to help...I notice I see it clearly during good reloads (during practice anyway...not sure of in a match yet).

[Flexmoney]

Crap...in and out again for me. I need some sit-down time. This is a good thread.

One key (in my mind)...to touching anything...is to first located it with surety.

^^^^I thought I posted that before I had to head out the door this morning, but I must have not hit the 'add reply' button.

[benos]

I found my reloads were more consistent - especially in competition - if I looked right at a specific spot on the magwell.

To cultivate remembering the feeling of the movement - I practiced without looking at the mag well and also in the dark. But I'd even end those practice sessions with some reloads looking right at the magwell.

I practiced reloads so much that I could cram them in pretty fast and pretty consistently without looking at the magwell. But all it takes is one bobbled reload to blow you out of a match. And of course that's where it's always going to happen - when you don't want it to the most.

With proper physical and visual technique - it does not take any longer to call the shot, "look the mag in," and find the next target, than it does to not look at the magwell. Actually, when done properly, I'd bet it's faster to look the mag in.

It's amazing what you can actually see if look decisively from one thing to the next.

be

[spook]

Whoops Double Tap

Edited November 6, 2007 by spook

[spook]

Wow, great replies here. I have given this a lot of thought since yesterday (despite the fact that I have a new PS3 and a 42" plasma to play with, so this must really be of interest to me )

I did some more reloads yesterday night.

Like a lot of people say (thanks for slapping me in the head with that Luca ), to move the head or not makes a big difference.

BTW, I think the whole head movement thing could be something I do because of all the revolver reloads where you move your head more.

Another difference I thought of with my analogy to the draw is this: I thought of something we all have done once in our lives (and if you haven't try it right now). Close your eyes, and put your hands in the position where they're in front of you face (about 1 foot away) and your index fingers extended and pointing at eachother (about 1,5 feet apart). Now slowly move your fingers towards eachother, keeping your eyes closed, and try to make the tips of your fingers touch.

Most of the times it wouldn't work.

Moral of this little joke was that the coordination between the two halves of your body is pretty crappy when you can't see s***

A draw is different from a reload in that a.) you have a point of reference in touching the gun with you arm (thanks for pointing that out SingleStack) and b.) you have a movement with one arm and a fixed object (gun in holster), as opposed to two arms having to coordinate with eachoter.

Now for the interesting part :

What I noticed is that the moment to stop looking at the magwell is crucial to me to have a fluid transition back to the shooting. Like Brians says, if I look at a specific part of the magwell, I seem to nail the reloads. But once I know the mag is going in I immediately have to move my vision back to the target, then the sights.

I feel this "knowing the mag went in" is the key to a perfect reload. Knowing the magazine went in is the "calling the shot" of reloading.

I would like to steer the whole discussion towards this aspect of the reload, if possible:

What is neccessary to know the magazine went in?

Edited November 6, 2007 by spook

[Skywalker]

What is neccessary to know the magazine went in?

... this is easy ... for me it's necessary to know I don't have a sore pinkie ...

Ok, back on topic ...

First of all a question: are you looking for a confirmation the mag went in, or the mag will go in?

To me this is most important, because it determines the moment you'll be shifting your focus from the gun/mag/magwell/whatever back to the target.

I rely on visual/feeling input that will tell me the mag is in.

The index finger of my weak hand points towards the magwell, while bringing the mag up there.

As soon as the index finger comes near the magwell, I start to open my weak hand, mag pushed and supported only at its base by the weak hand palm.

If I don't get any feedback of the top bullet getting stuck on the magwell/grip, at this point I know the mag will go in and shift my focus back to the target.

Edited November 6, 2007 by Skywalker

[Mo Hepworth]

i think it gets to the point after thousands of reloads that I don't specifically recall images of watching the mag go in everytime. During a match I barely recall it.

[gunsablazin]

i think it gets to the point after thousands of reloads that I don't specifically recall images of watching the mag go in everytime. During a match I barely recall it.

+1, When shooting a match I know if my reload was fast and smooth if I have no memory of it.

[Mo Hepworth]

i think it gets to the point after thousands of reloads that I don't specifically recall images of watching the mag go in everytime. During a match I barely recall it.

+1, When shooting a match I know if my reload was fast and smooth if I have no memory of it.

yeah, we always remember our mistakes and tend to forget events if things run smoothly.

[eerw]

I don't remember a reload unless it was bad..just like I don't remember a good draw..but can certainly tell you how a bad one felt..

I have recently switch to reloading a lot higher up and out..and it has really smoothed things up..I can do one close and about chin level from pure muscle memory..and it took a lot of convincing me the other was more consistent..

but doing the dryfire and shooting a few matches..the reloads are sticking a lot faster and more consistent..

even more proof to me..was playing with a Glock..which I was convinced harder to reload because of the mag being bigger on top than the CZ mag..

well..playing again with a Glock...I can consistently and smoothly stick the reload..

amazing this stuff..

[benos]

What is neccessary to know the magazine went in?

When you know it didn't not go in.

[spook]

What is neccessary to know the magazine went in?

First of all a question: are you looking for a confirmation the mag went in, or the mag will go in?

To me this is most important, because it determines the moment you'll be shifting your focus from the gun/mag/magwell/whatever back to the target.

I'm looking for both. One after the other.

First I need to know the magazine will go in, so I can continue with the reload.

Otherwise this will happen: I don't focus, but just glace at the magwell. I don't know the mag will go in but continue with the reload anyway. Result is a missed reload.

So knowing the mag will go in is the first stage on confirmation I need. This is basically where I know everything is lined up and the magazine will go in if I continue the movement.

To get this confirmation I need to really see the magwell. And understand/realize how it is lined up and kind of visualize the mag going in. This sounds like a lot, but it is the only way I can explain the type of focus I need to see the magwell.

Second, I need to know the magazine went in to know I get my focus back on the target. This feedback is visual and also by feel like you say here:

I rely on visual/feeling input that will tell me the mag is in.

[...]If I don't get any feedback of the top bullet getting stuck on the magwell/grip, at this point I know the mag will go in and shift my focus back to the target.

i think it gets to the point after thousands of reloads that I don't specifically recall images of watching the mag go in everytime. During a match I barely recall it.

Yes, I noticed that too and I think it's what Brian refers to in his book, where vision is one of the first things to deteriorate when enduring match stress.

Also, I realize I started this thread because I want to have a "step by step guide" of doing a reload (specifically to go through the stuff that messes up my consistency right now). So I want no difference between dry fire and match or live fire reloads.

I don't remember a reload unless it was bad..just like I don't remember a good draw..but can certainly tell you how a bad one felt..

I want to eliminate bad reloads (or bad everything to be exact )

What is neccessary to know the magazine went in?

When you know it didn't not go in.

well, there's your tautology for today kids

Then again, I see we're getting in the area where it hard (at least for me) to express what you sense and it's even harder to determine objective elements in those senses that apply to everyone.

All comments are welcome though. I'm really enjoying thinking/discussing shooting on these forums again (even when is the part where the gun doesn't go bang;))

[Flexmoney]

Random thougthts while sitting at the airport...

- the high reload: I've always felt that the really high reload was a bit of a myth. On videos that I have seen, most of the top shooters tend to bring the load down a bit, from in front of the face to...maybe...chin level or lower. TT, Steve and Jake are all great proponents of the high reload. And, if anybody is likely to actual do the reload that high on a stage, it is these guys. They have already done thousands of them. (training vs. theory)

- At the point of first insertion, I have always (in theory) thought that the strong hand ought to bring the gun down, once the mag started in. This would bring the hands to the natural high-ready position...ready for the same presentation that we always do.

- Contrast that with the high load...with a static strong hand. As the mag gets seated, the weak hand tends to push the strong hand up even highier. Getting more and more out of position for the presentation.

- I recently commented, on a video posted on another forum, that the shooter there was dropping his head to reload down below the sternum. Lots of extra stuff going on there...none of it saving time or helping presentation or being consistent.

- Practice and the timer...with a goal of decreasing the time...trumps all. I remember a couple of years ago, when I knew that Anderson had been hitting the reload practice a lot. He came to a steel challenge match and on the reshoot, he was doing a reload before the stop plate. If I were to critic those loads, I would have thgought that he was keeping the gun too vertical to recieve the incoming mags. But, he was hitting those reloads with a transition to the stop plate in under a second. One after another.

It's hard to argue with the timer and a hit to the a-zone.

[AWLAZS]

I was ROing my club match. We had a shooter-- who has been in the ipsc game for a long time--start looking at his gun. It was strange to watch him get into the ready position. It sure slowed up his first shot.

I remember when I started shooting people did start looking at the gun.

I have found teaching someone the reload, high, looking the mag into the gun and then driving your eyes back to the target before the gun gets there helps my understanding of why it is done that way.

When I try to do it in dry fire on the clock my goal is to bet the timer. When I teach the reload my focus is on the technique.

It sounds like I need to change my goal during dry fire. Good technique will beat the clock.

[spook]

It's hard to argue with the timer and a hit to the a-zone.

Very true. Combine that with a near 100% consistency and you're there

[benos]

Then again, I see we're getting in the area where it hard (at least for me) to express what you sense and it's even harder to determine objective elements in those senses that apply to everyone.

It's not something I sense or feel at all. When I know the load went it, it's because I saw the mag going into the mag well. Probably when it's about half way in, my eyes then begin to find the next target.

be

[shred]

I noticed the other day when running the TT video, he does dip his eyes just a little. The problem with looking on the draw is you have to make a huge head movement.

"Back in the Day", the theory was you had to wait to see the empty come out.. Nobody's mentioned that so far, including some people that should know.

[spook]

"Back in the Day", the theory was you had to wait to see the empty come out.. Nobody's mentioned that so far, including some people that should know.

That's something frustrating I run into with the Glock. Mags drop so slow that my primary focus is on dropping the old mag instead of getting the new one

I found out it helps to not just tap the mag catch to release the mag, but to actually hold it until the top of the magazine is past the catch, to reduce friction...

[Mo Hepworth]

I notice this as well. I made the leap from using an HK USP for production, to a Tanfoglio stock2. Mags are a little easier to put in, but seem to take forever to drop out. I further complicate the matter by bending my arm and canting the pistol sometimes before the mag clears the gun. Out of force of habit with the HK, ...of which the mags spit out....fast!

[38superman]

In producing my match videos (shameless plug), I get to watch a lot of film on a wide variety of shooters.

Guiding the fresh magazine into the gun is not the most common problem that I see on tape.

Looking it in, or doing it by feel does not really seem to be the main issue.

The problem for a lot of shooters is getting the spent magazine out of the gun.

Most everyone (myself included) tries to drop the magazine and then roll the wrist so that the mag well is pivoted toward the incoming magazine.

This is a timing issue.

The gun needs to be held vertical long enough to allow the spent mag to clear the mag well.

If you roll the gun too soon the spent mag may hang up and not clear the gun before the fresh mag arrives.

I also see alot of shooters shaking the gun when the spent mag does not drop freely or quickly enough.

Sometimes a magazine with a few rounds left has the weight to drop okay, but an empty may not if there is any drag inside the gun.

If you have already grabbed a mag off your belt and your weak hand is full, you have a real problem if the empty mag is hung in the gun.

This is an issue that can arise when changing mag wells on an S_I.

Magwells are not drop in components.

If the grip is not modified and the new magwell fitted properly, It may pinch the grip enough so that some mags drop freely, others don't.

Just my tip of the day.

Tony

Edited November 12, 2007 by 38superman

[Heavy Metal Only]

Dont believe the hype. You do it how ever you need to do it. Who says you have to look at the reload. There are alot of ways to do everything. If I have to shoot under a low wall and can see over it, I don't use the sights at all. Now that might not be the "right way" but until someone starts paying me to shoot. I'll do it my way. Is there a right way to shoot exibition shotgun? Who tell Tom Knapp how to do it. Noone he just does it, so to you I say just do it.

[eerw]

Dont believe the hype. You do it how ever you need to do it. Who says you have to look at the reload. There are alot of ways to do everything. If I have to shoot under a low wall and can see over it, I don't use the sights at all. Now that might not be the "right way" but until someone starts paying me to shoot. I'll do it my way. Is there a right way to shoot exibition shotgun? Who tell Tom Knapp how to do it. Noone he just does it, so to you I say just do it.

there will always be the anomaly..and you do what's best for your performance..but always be a student of the game.

[38superman]

Dont believe the hype. You do it how ever you need to do it. Who says you have to look at the reload. There are alot of ways to do everything. If I have to shoot under a low wall and can see over it, I don't use the sights at all. Now that might not be the "right way" but until someone starts paying me to shoot. I'll do it my way. Is there a right way to shoot exibition shotgun? Who tell Tom Knapp how to do it. Noone he just does it, so to you I say just do it.

there will always be the anomaly..and you do what's best for your performance..but always be a student of the game.

+1

I wouldn't call it hype, just information.

There is a lot of differing opinions and advice floating around, some of it good, some not so good.

You just have to sift through it and "separate the wheat from the chaff" to find what works best for you.

Tony

Edited November 12, 2007 by 38superman