Change in Championship Events

[NRAActionPistol]

I sincerly care about your opinions so let's vote, here is a list of all the Courses of fire for Action Pistol. If you HAD to remove one from the Championship which one would it be? If you HAD to pick one to add to the Championship which one would it be? Send me an email or give me a call, this will give us a real good way to see if there needs to be a change and to what level. So far it's change hands down, to what, that will be decided by all of us.

It's time to step up to the plate!

Tom...

"There's no limit to what a man can do or where he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit".

Ronald Reagan

Courses of Fire

There are currently 16 recognized courses of fire for record, plus a Tyro course. The Tyro course is designed, as an option, to allow tournament sponsors to test the proficiency of a brand-new shooter, who must complete this course before participating in any of the record courses. The following courses of fire have been approved by the NRA Action Shooting Committee.

The Tyro Course is divided into three stages with three targets per stage, a total of 24 shots. All firing is from 10 yards. This course of fire must be successfully completed by all newcomers before advancing to record matches.

The Los Alamitos Pistol Match is divided into 5 stages for a total of 42 shots fired at 7, 10 and 25 yards.

The Flying "M" is conducted as man against man: Targets are placed at 7, 10 and 15 yards. The 7 yard target is a metal plate. Four strings are fired, two strings to the right and two to the lift. There is no time limit, and the 7 yard target stops the clock.

The Moving Target course is shot in three stages, for a total of 24 shots, from 7, 15 and 25 yards.

The International Rapid Fire (Modified) consists of 30 shots at 25 meters. The course is subdivided into six strings of five shots each; two in 8 seconds, two in 6 seconds and two in 4 seconds.

The Advanced Military Pistol course is divided into 6 stages for a total of 50 shots fired from 10, 25 and 50 yards.

The Practical Event consists of four stages, each with three strings and 12 shots per stage (48 shots total) and fired from 10, 15, 25 and 50 yards.

The Barricade Event is divided into four stages, with two strings per stage and 6 shots per string, for a total of 48 shots. All shots will be fired from behind a barricade.

The Moving Target Event (Modified) course is divided into 4 stages 12 shots each, for a total of 48 shots. The target will travel 60 feet in six seconds, between two barricades.

The Falling Plate Event is divided into 4 stages; each stage will have 2 strings, with 6 shots per string, 48 shots total. The targets will be 8 inch round medal plates, fired at 10, 15 and 25 yards.

The Speed Event is conducted as a man against man match, utilizing speed plate (steel) targets with firing done from 10 yards. The course is divided into two phases; Qualification and Finals. Firing is done from left and right side firing positions each containing a fan of one stationary time stop-place and four knock down plates. Maximum of 6 shots fired at targets. There is no time limit and the stop-plate stops the clock.

Crawford Barricade Event is divided into four stages, with two strings per stage and 6 shots per string, for a total of 48 shots. During each 6 shot string, shooter must fire 3 rounds at the right target and 3 rounds at the left target from matching sides of the barricade. All shots will be fired from behind a barricade.

Combat Event - An aggregate of the following stages: Stage 1) 7 yards - 12 shots from the standing without support position; eighteen seconds, time starts with loaded gun in holster and includes reloading for second 6 shot string. Stage 2) 25 yards - 6 shots kneeling, 6 shots standing left side from behind barricade, 6 shots standing right side from behind the barricade; sixty seconds, time starts with loaded gun in holster and includes reloading for subsequent 6 shot strings. Stage 3) 50 yards - 6 shots sitting, 6 shots prone, 6 shots standing left side from behind the barricade, and 6 shots standing right side from behind the barricade; two minutes, time starts with loaded gun in holster and includes reloading for subsequent 6 shot strings. Stage 4) 25 yards - shots standing without support; ten seconds, time starts with loaded gun in holster.

The Ambidextrous Match is shot in three stages, using the 8" plate target: Stage 1) 10 yards, 6 shots freestyle; 6 shots each, strong hand and weak hand only, unsupported. Stage 2) 15 yards, same as Stage One. Stage 3) 20 yards, two 6 shot strings, freestyle.

The Unsupported Standard Match is divided into four stages, with two strings per stage and 6 shots per string, for a total of 48 shots. There are three D-1 targets, fired at 10,15, 20 and 25 yards. All shooting is done with alternating strings of weak hand and strong hand unsupported.

The Speedload Challenge Event is divided into four stages, 2 strings per stage with a reload, six shots per string. There are three D-1 targets, fired at 10, 15, 25 and 50 yards. Shooting includes strong hand and weak hand unsupported.

All courses require a competitor to start with a holstered pistol and, on command, draw and fire at one more targets. Some of these courses limit the use of only the "strong" hand or use of the "weak" hand. One advantage for new shooters, however, is that a two-hand hold may be used in most of the course.

[Action Pistolero]

Here's my 2 cents worth.

The Mover and Plates need to stay. That leaves the Barricade or Practical to go.

For the last several years Bianchi, for me, has been more about the people that shoot the Cup than the shooting. That being said, I believe the new event should be one that has more fun to it. Don't get me wrong, I like to shoot all of the events. I realize that the change needs to be made but I don't think that most of us are ready for the Advanced Military Pistol, Unsupported Standards or International Rapid Fire just yet. I think the Crawford Barricade or Speedload Challenge would be the way to go to start with.

What I would really like to see is the Championship go to 6 events. Then those that like to shoot the 4 can have those and those of us that want something different can have that too. Time will tell.

[goldfieldshooter]

I have had my say in an e-mail to Tom but if we MUST have a vote, keep the mover and change the barricade to crawford barricade.

coatesy

[Allgoodhits]

First Choice: Leave it as is. The Sport isn't broken, the promotion of it is, and has been for years.

Second Choice: Drop Practical, pick up 48 round Speedload Challenge to 50 yds.

Third Choice: Drop Plates, pick up Ambi Plates.

Fourth Choice: Do away with all Classifications, but not divisions. Go back to the beginning where here is the COF, have at it and be ranked. This way all the redundant awards would go away, but everyone would go home with something of bragging value. I think Kim Beckwith touched on this.

[8shooter]

First Choice: Leave it as is. The Sport isn't broken, the promotion of it is, and has been for years.

+1 to that.

[TonyH]

Leave as is & promote the match & sport better than we do.

[oldtrooper]

I just like to shoot The Cup and can live with whatever is decided just announce the courses of fire no later than January of the year they go into effect. The mover is a problem with clubs that don't already have one but the vast majority appears to be in favor of leaving it in place at the Cup. If a change is decided then I would recommend the Ambidextrous Plates. This is a change of pace with no modification to the range equipment. The plates also have more spectator appeal than any of the other events.

[Allgoodhits]

I just like to shoot The Cup and can live with whatever is decided just announce the courses of fire no later than January of the year they go into effect. The mover is a problem with clubs that don't already have one but the vast majority appears to be in favor of leaving it in place at the Cup. If a change is decided then I would recommend the Ambidextrous Plates. This is a change of pace with no modification to the range equipment. The plates also have more spectator appeal than any of the other events.

......and they will save money on white paint!

How 'bout that Phil Hemphill.

Martin

Edited November 5, 2007 by Allgoodhits

[BPiatt]

Don't change the Bianchi Cup events. Promote the match and promote clubs to use the other events locally... OR

I liked idea in the other post to offer clubs grants and/or lower cost movers. I've got a friend at Action Target

that I'm sure could crunch some numbers for the NRA.

[Jay Della Bella]

My vote is to leave it alone

[gm iprod]

Leave it as is for the time being. Let us get used to shooting the match and seeing what is really wrong, continuous fiddling with rules drives people away. As we have seen in the last four or five years, quick fixes never work out in the long run. As MJ says it ain't really broke.

But, adding another match or two, making it five or six matches has real merit. Rapid fire without being able to go prone would be real nasty. A real test for those that shoot two guns. It used to be five way back when.

The mover is damned hard, and an integral part of shooting the Cup, don't make it easier by removing the greatest leveller I have ever seen at a match. This is a match I love to hate. There is nothing as satisfying as shooting the mover well. To emphasise this point, only one person 480'd the mover at the Aussie Nationals last week, and he won too. Go Kiwi.

Promotion is very important, but difficult to get right, I don't envy Tom's position at present.

[Allgoodhits]

I might add, one thing we must not do is alienate Tom Hughes. He and the AP Committee are the messengers to the NRA Board and bean counters. I am sure Tom get's tremendous resistance to about anything at NRA.

I think Rudy did a good job transitioning from the latter days of Russ Stott. Rudy, no doubt, inherited a hornets nest. He calmed the stingers, and kept us afloat, with minimal lost speed. Good job Rudy.

I personally think we are better positioned today, with Tom Hughes, than we have been in recent years to effect a model for future Cups. Whether no changes occur, or many changes occur, we need to make sure 2008 attendance is up from 2007. This will help assure a few more out years.

[kimmbeckwith]

OK, My vote is to leave the mover in, and use other matches that eliminate 50 yard targets for now. This would allow the other disciplines to be able to compete with their existing firearms. The only problem I see with the speed load challenge, most of us have mag well extensions and those do make it difficult to seat magazine. But, I can take it if that match is chosen! Don't get me wrong, I love the 50 yard line coming from PPC, but this might be the ticket to get other disciplines involved.

Kim

[gm iprod]

The problem is that the four matches are a nice balance of accuracy, speed, technique and poise under pressure. This was the essential basis for the Bianchi Cup, it was a high level test of a great variety of Marksmanship skills, the original competitors came from a variey of shooting sports and had never shot this kind of all in one match before.

So making changes (however well intentioned) is going to push the balance one way and to the apparant detriment of the others. NRA AP purists or officiandos, take your pick, will be upset with the change of balance.

I believe that was the intention, but as time has gone by, we as humans, have evolved the match to be what is has become, IPSC has pretty much done the same thing. The guys who got PO'd with the gaming came up with IDPA.

We can't afford to fracture this game, we don't have enough guys to go around now.

Rudy and now Tom have made a great fist of the mess that was the AP program. I understand the problems they are facing. I like what I like and I like the Bianchi Cup the way it is. But I am only one.

I have to travel 8000 miles to get there, and I would like to see more shooting. See previous posts.

Edited November 6, 2007 by gm iprod

[Action Pistolero]

Martin,

Old Tropper is Billie Hughes not Phillip.

Kim,

Get with it man! The times in the Speedload were set up for Revolvers by a revolver shooter. You don't have to complete 1 second reloads.

I'm glad I don't have Tom's job either. I told him so last week. I sure wouldn't have his patience!

Kevin

[8shooter]

The problem is that the four matches are a nice balance of accuracy, speed, technique and poise under pressure. This was the essential basis for the Bianchi Cup, it was a high level test of a great variety of Marksmanship skills, the original competitors came from a variey of shooting sports and had never shot this kind of all in one match before.

So making changes (however well intentioned) is going to push the balance one way and to the apparant detriment of the others. NRA AP purists or officiandos, take your pick, will be upset with the change of balance.

I believe that was the intention, but as time has gone by, we as humans, have evolved the match to be what is has become, IPSC has pretty much done the same thing. The guys who got PO'd with the gaming came up with IDPA.

We can't afford to fracture this game, we don't have enough guys to go around now.

Rudy and now Tom have made a great fist of the mess that was the AP program. I understand the problems they are facing. I like what I like and I like the Bianchi Cup the way it is. But I am only one.

I have to travel 8000 miles to get there, and I would like to see more shooting. See previous posts.

+1 to that, well said.

Rudy asked me in if I could improve one thing and one thing only, and I said add a couple more stages to the match so there is more shooting, still keep the championship based on the four stages at the moment, but with an additional one or two stages added in, I didn't have the patience to shoot the side matches.

I also thanks Tom personally in an email a few days ago for the tremendous effort he has applied to the growth of the sport.

[Allgoodhits]

Martin,

Old Tropper is Billie Hughes not Phillip.

...

Kevin

Kevin,

I know that. Billies Hughes was with Mississippi Highway Patrol, same as Philip. Philip came in second overall at Camp Perry in only his second year at Bullseye Nationals. An incredible feat!

MJ

[Leroy]

Keep the mover and plates. through out the pratical. pick 2 events that will replace the pratical and let us know what they are,and if you want to announce it at the cup and use the other one as a side event.

Like Kevin said more stages would be great also 5 or 6 events wourd make a great match for sure.

I beleive this would help draw new shooters but most of all brings back the ones we lost.

Leroy

[Dirty Steve]

I know I'm chiming in late but if I were to change anything I would say Crawford Barricade and Ambi Plates would make things interesting. However if a change were to be made for say 2010 I would announce it Jan 2009. Giving a full year for folks to prepare. Unlike some past years rule changes being made in Jan. and folks scrabling to get thier guns changed up and functioning. Changes need to be annouced to give competitors plenty of time to prepare.

Dirty Steve, out..

Kevin if you read this sorry I missed you in Texas. I was hurt bad early in the year and just could not get in any practice in the whole year.

[Dirty Steve]

Ok I read the thread discussing taking out the Mover. I like the event and woukd like it to stay. This being said if it were to go I think the Combat Event should replace it.

Dirty Steve, Out

[benos]

One thing to keep in mind... If a new COF is added, for the first few years at least, the new COF will "become the match." Meaning, whoever wins the new COF will probably win the match.

We tried to tell "them" that in '85, when "they" added the Rapid Fire event. Which only lasted for that year, because "they" realized it was true.

be

[TonyH]

AMEN!!

[Action Pistolero]

be,

You and I discussed this issue several years ago when I bought my 1050. You relayed to me that at your last Cup and my first (2000) you were so tired of practicing the 4 events that you almost packed up and went home. When I mentioned to you that I would like to see the events changed you told me that you would then consider returning to shoot it. I took that to mean that you favored a change and I used that while I was on the Committee and since then to push for this. It only took 5 years to get here.

I'm not advocating changing one of the events and then that event becomes the 4th event forever. I say that one event needs to be change every year.

How many years has the mover decided the champion? Quite a few. I would say that the plates decided the championship until someone we know started the Open class. If the new event decides the Champion then so be it. The match should be all about the shooter that adapted and overcame not the shooter who got the most practice on what we have now.

The Bianchi Cup is the National Action Pistol Championship not the National Mover, Plates, Practical and Barricade Championship.

Steve,

Sorry to hear that you got hurt this year. You could have atleast came out and said hello.

Your club shoots all of the events so you should know that if you have a gun set up for the 4 events then it's good enough for all the rest.

Kevin

[Allgoodhits]

The Mover has determined the Champion is recent years, because the most likely Champion will come from the Super Squad, and the Super Squad shoots the Mover last. Shooting errors caused by pressure in the final shots are not limited to Moving targets.

I would venture to say, that if the Barricade or Practical were fired last by the Super Squad, then the winner would most likely be determined by that last event. In a manner of speaking, each event in recent years has been a preliminary to the next. As soon as a ten is NOT fired, then that person has proven to be out of the hunt for the Cup. In some cases that has been on the barricade, practical or plates. We see it on the Mover, since those clean at that point are the only remaining in the hunt for Cup.

A change without change, could be to reshuffle the order of events. This would likely only effect the Super Squad, but could be interesting. I would like the COF to remain the same. The PPC Nationals have been virtually unchanged for over 30 years, except now you have to shoot two guns for the overall National Championships. Bullseye has been virtually unchanged for decades, same as High Power and most other NRA disciplines.

I can't believe I am saying this, but maybe the Cup should be combined score of open and metallic. That way you get 8 events instead of 4, and shooting some of the events with the other gun will feel like a different match!

.....or leave it the way it is. We need more interest, more shooters, nothing else. Generally speaking people do not like change, except whatever political party is not the majority!

MJ

[TonyH]

I can't believe I am saying this, but maybe the Cup should be combined score of open and metallic. That way you get 8 events instead of 4, and shooting some of the events with the other gun will feel like a different match!

Now were talking!!!