chunger Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 So I decided to give Dave Tubb's final finish bullets a try. . . it seems to me they are 80 grain bullets, and I'm trying not to blow up my rifle (just getting started loading). I have some pre-sized/trimmed brass and W748 that I was planning on loading a ton of 55 grain Hornadys with. The Lyman manual says I should load 80 grain bullets to 2.550" OAL. After loading one to that length, I'm thinking it's awefully long. The suggested starting load was 21.8 grains 748 2.550 OAL, so I loaded 21.9 grains 748, but the load is ridiculously longer than a factory bullet. I didn't want to run it through the gun and risk anything before asking. These don't need to fly worth anything I guess. They don't even need to cycle the action. . . just get the bullet out the other side of the tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 So I decided to give Dave Tubb's final finish bullets a try. . . it seems to me they are 80 grain bullets, and I'm trying not to blow up my rifle (just getting started loading). I have some pre-sized/trimmed brass and W748 that I was planning on loading a ton of 55 grain Hornadys with.The Lyman manual says I should load 80 grain bullets to 2.550" OAL. After loading one to that length, I'm thinking it's awefully long. The suggested starting load was 21.8 grains 748 2.550 OAL, so I loaded 21.9 grains 748, but the load is ridiculously longer than a factory bullet. I didn't want to run it through the gun and risk anything before asking. These don't need to fly worth anything I guess. They don't even need to cycle the action. . . just get the bullet out the other side of the tube. 80 grain Sierra's are meant to be single loaded not fed through a magazine. That's why Lyman lists the overall length at 2.550. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I noticed Cabela's had loaded ammo with Tubb's final finish bullets. Might be a better approach..........................next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Isn't David Tubb the same guy who is advocating the Russian Wolf brand primers as THE new, ultra-high precision primers for bench rest use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunger Posted October 23, 2007 Author Share Posted October 23, 2007 (edited) Found some load data. . . I pulled the 1st bullet and backed it down to 21.3 grains W74 and 2.550" OAL and verified that they are the 80 grain SMK bullets. I think I should be good to go. Edited October 23, 2007 by chunger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Read the page that came with the box and or go to Tubb's website we used that on five or six guns, you gota clean the barrel every round for the first two sets of five If I remember rite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunger Posted October 27, 2007 Author Share Posted October 27, 2007 I had a completely unsuccessful day at the range today. I took the bullets that I loaded, dropped one in the chamber (too long to mag feed), dropped the bolt on it, and just to check, pulled the bolt back to see if the round sits correctly in the chamber. Slight resistance on the way out. That didn't seem right. There were some marks on the bullet. So I put that bullet aside, and chambered another one. This time, the bolt wouldn't come back to me. After considerable effort, I yanked the bolt back, and I got a case and a lot of loose powder with a bullet stuck in the barrel. I decided to call it a day and ask questions before I go blowing up perfectly good equipment. The OAL I loaded to was 2.550" like every manual I've checked specifies for the 80 grain SMK. I think I went 2.545 just to leave a little bit of room. I'm pretty new to this, but I know bullets are supposed to jump to the rifling and bad things happen if they do not. Any things I should double check? I'm a bit confused. On a side note, I was sad to hear all the commotion of the Bay Bridge charity match happening on the other range. It sounded like tons of fun, but my IPSC membership package just arrived in the mail today, so I wasn't able to register in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milanuk Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 (edited) I decided to call it a day and ask questions before I go blowing up perfectly good equipment. The OAL I loaded to was 2.550" like every manual I've checked specifies for the 80 grain SMK. I think I went 2.545 just to leave a little bit of room. I'm pretty new to this, but I know bullets are supposed to jump to the rifling and bad things happen if they do not. What makes you think you have a chamber anything like whats in those loading manuals? Once you start loading beyond mag length, you should take absolutely *nothing* for granted that what you have in your gun (twist rate, land/groove diameter, freebore, etc.) even remotely resembles whats 'in the book'. Go here: http://njhighpower.com/ And click on 'Reloading Stuph' on the side, and near the top it gives a description of a handful of the most common chambers used today (the 'Wylde' is one of the more common that I see people use, but then I shoot NRA HP too). Look at how many of them seat a 80gr SMK out to 2.550". NONE!!! As for what you 'know' about bullet jump... stop right there. If you really, really want to shoot those bullets thru your gun, I'd advise finding someone near you who shoots full distance NRA High Power... they likely have the tools and the knowledge to help you *safely* determine the seating depth you need for those particular bullets in your particular barrel. If thats not an option, we can work you thru it over the 'Net, but it'll be a bit tedious to explain. Edited October 29, 2007 by milanuk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Stoney Point OAL Guage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milanuk Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Actually, it's not made by Stoney Point anymore. Hornady Lock-n-Load now. I have two complete sets... I use them for *everything*... seating depth, headspace, bullet bearing surface (when I'm feeling really, really picky). Figure its easier for someone to *show* him how to do it, or do it for him if this is a one-time thing (doesn't sound like he uses 80's... ever, or he would already know this stuff) than explain the whole she-bang and what to look for, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Step one for asking questions What frikking caliber ? case ? weapon ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 (edited) Step one for asking questionsWhat frikking caliber ? case ? weapon ? Good question. I guess everyone is assuming its 223 in an AR since its 80 gr. sierras and by powder charge and it wouldn't fit in the mag. Side note - Do you think think the Final Finish kit uses 80 grainers for larger surface area, bearing surface, would that be the reason? Edited October 29, 2007 by HoMiE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunger Posted October 29, 2007 Author Share Posted October 29, 2007 (edited) 80 grain SMK .224 The weapon is AR15 5.56 chamber run of the mill CMMG chrome barrel 1/8 twist 18" cases are lake city pre-processed scharch brass full length sized and trimmed 1.75" +/- .003" Winchester small rifle primer Winchester 748 powder I'm not trying to work up a load for 80 grain bullets for this gun. I just wanted to try the FF system out and get these polishing bullets down the bore without blowing anything up. Edited October 29, 2007 by chunger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milanuk Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 You do realize the pistol primers don't have as thick of a cup as rifle primers do... you're taking some un-necessary risks there as well. Since you aren't trying to actually work up a load, we'll try the low-tech way (that doesn't involve buying/borrowing a new tool): Try taking one round, and just the upper, and chamber it. Bump the seating length back until you no longer see any seating marks from the rifling. Be careful when chambering it so you don't mistake any feeding drag marks for the seating marks from the lands. You should be able to do this with moderate thumb pressure on the back of the bolt carrier. Once you think you have the seating depth figured, seat another round to the same depth and double check. Might try easing it back out towards the lands to make sure you haven't shoved it too far into the case. Normally I'd suggest taking some #0000 steel wool and polishing the bullet or coating w/ a black sharpie to show the seating marks, but you might be able to see them in the FF coating with a hand magnifying glass. Basically you're trying to get the bullet seated to somewhere just off the lands - not jammed into the case any further than you need to, but not stuffed into the lands as that alters the pressure curve and needs to be approached carefully. With such a small charge of 748, and it being a fairly dense powder, you shouldn't run into any powder compression issues. After you get your seating depth where you want it you should be able to chamber rounds, eject the freely, and the bullet should stay in the case until fired. HTH, Monte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom D. Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Really don't think it's a good idea to 'Final Finish' a chrome lined barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunger Posted October 29, 2007 Author Share Posted October 29, 2007 Doh, Mis-type. . . I'm using Winchester small rifle primers. I'll re-adjust my previous post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Run n Gun Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Really don't think it's a good idea to 'Final Finish' a chrome lined barrel. It took my Bushmaster chromed-lined 5.56 barrel from ~3" groups to <1". If Final Finish hadn't worked I would have thrown the barrel away. You can find loading data here. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmitchl Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 I just went through the exercise to measure maximum COL in an AR. I after trying a number of techniques I've settled on a home made tool similar to the Sinclair tool for my bolt guns. This tool allows you to find the maximum COL for a specific bullet profile and your specific chamber without having to interpret scratches in a sharpie mark or blacking the bullets in a candle. I made an adapter for the tool using 1" rod to fit the back of the AR15 upper and act as a datum/guide for the tool. Below are the results for several bullets and my chamber. All of these lengths are longer than can be loaded in a magazine. Keith Bullet Mfg Weight Shape Max COL Sierra 55 2.383 HDY 68 BTHP Match 2.398 HDY 75 A-Max 2.529 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Run n Gun Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 chunger, The load for W748 in the data found in my above past says "21.3gr". I think I went a little lighter than that, about 20grs. As to OAL; I just kept screwing my seating die down until the trial round would just function in an AR mag. Sorry, I don't have an OAL for you. Be sure to allot sufficient time to this project, I think it took me 2 1/2-3 hours at the range to go through the whole process. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the results, I just ordered some for my 308 AR10! Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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