FL Limited 08 - What if?

[dirtypool40]

1st - sounds like a fun match, DP!! And what a concept, actually shooting head to head!!

Let's get serious folks - if your only reason for shooting a match is what's on the prize table then you're well past the law of diminishing returns. I've been shooting competitively, starting with IDPA in '99 and then transitioning to USPSA a couple years ago and I've "won" a grand total of two items worth more than $100 off the prize table. TWO.

Yet somehow, I dare say I've spent more than $200 on matches in the last 7-8 years.

I go to matches that are fun, creative and give me a chance to hang out with like minded souls.

Nice prize tables a cool gift for everyone are really cool; but that's just icing on the cake.

Getting to test myself against my friends and the best in the business are what gets me to a match because that, my friends, is priceless.

I'd be more worried about DP getting married and his new wife telling him to quit shooting than I would about this match being a dud.

I musta been typing, how did I miss THIS post?!?!?

I hope we see you there Derrick, you have the right idea. Musashi would shoot it..... probably with one gun in each hand.

[Chris Keen]

Why not give out prizes by raw order of finish, but have plaques for the Class winners ?

[dirtypool40]

Why not give out prizes by raw order of finish, but have plaques for the Class winners ?

Yup, not a bad idea. We gave away free shoots to class winners at the FL SS.

I saw Smitty lurking. Surely if anyone should be burnt out and tell me to save my sanity it should be him. Are you the voice of reason Smitty, or do you wanna defend the good name of the Gunshine state against all comers???

[Sharyn]

Well, I'm an Open shooter... I guess Leo and I will just have to shoot our own match... I bet I could convince Cliffie to try out Open too...

In all fairness, Cliff showed up at his first stage (my stage) at the Monster Match decked out in Limited gear ready to unleash the Limited beast within... but we, dummies, talked him out of it.

I'd be happy to try out Limited division at a match like this, but $200 is pretty stiff for a match that hasn't established itself yet, IMO. However, I'd probably shoot it anyway since it's "home-state". Add on flight, rental car, etc. and it's not likely. If in another 2 years everyone is raving about the FL Limited, I'd be more likely to spend the money.

When considering how much I'd pay for a match fee, I really look at the quality of the stages and how well the match is run. I don't want to pay $50 for "two shots here, reload then two more shots"... and nothing kills a match for me more than a lot of standing around waiting.

I couldn't care less about what's on the prize table. I pay for the quality of the match.

Go for it and good luck, Eric! Sounds great!

[baa]

Sounds like fun, though I agree with Sharyn that the match fee sounds a bit steep for a brand new match.

[dirtypool40]

Well, I'm an Open shooter... I guess Leo and I will just have to shoot our own match... I bet I could convince Cliffie to try out Open too...

In all fairness, Cliff showed up at his first stage (my stage) at the Monster Match decked out in Limited gear ready to unleash the Limited beast within... but we, dummies, talked him out of it.

I'd be happy to try out Limited division at a match like this, but $200 is pretty stiff for a match that hasn't established itself yet, IMO. However, I'd probably shoot it anyway since it's "home-state". Add on flight, rental car, etc. and it's not likely. If in another 2 years everyone is raving about the FL Limited, I'd be more likely to spend the money.

When considering how much I'd pay for a match fee, I really look at the quality of the stages and how well the match is run. I don't want to pay $50 for "two shots here, reload then two more shots"... and nothing kills a match for me more than a lot of standing around waiting.

I couldn't care less about what's on the prize table. I pay for the quality of the match.

Go for it and good luck, Eric! Sounds great!

Good points Sharyn, maybe I'll go cheap and easy for year 1 and then get aggressive if I'm dumb enough to do it again.

As to Cliff, I'm GLAD you talked him out of Limited, how else am I supposed to have a chance? Still I would love to see everyone from all the different divisions competing in Limited. And I've seen you with a single stack, and I have it on good authority you can get your hands on a Limited gun with a minimum of eyelash batting.

As to stages, I agree, they are the heart of any good match and I already have ideas for about half of them. I've had a "par time field course" stage perking in my head for years. There's also a quick, but very busy field course based on a Burner drill I've always wanted to see in a big match. I like stages that test the shooter, right to the limit of their whole game, including stage cutting and decision making. They'll be hot, trust me on that.

[Sandro]

Eric, I think you're out of your mind bud by running a match. However you can count on me. Limited… It is all good.

[AA-Wolf]

DP stated:

Another idea, instead of the hated LEWIS system, might be to treat the match as a classifier, 1st 85-95% is 1st M.

Now that's a cool idea the more I think of it. YOU, the match director, sets the classes and where the shooter falls is where he falls into the class. You may be on to something here...

[mjbine]

DP stated:

Another idea, instead of the hated LEWIS system, might be to treat the match as a classifier, 1st 85-95% is 1st M.

Now that's a cool idea the more I think of it. YOU, the match director, sets the classes and where the shooter falls is where he falls into the class. You may be on to something here...

That would be hard to sandbag since you really don't know where you would end up until it was completely over.

[zhunter]

DP stated:

Another idea, instead of the hated LEWIS system, might be to treat the match as a classifier, 1st 85-95% is 1st M.

Now that's a cool idea the more I think of it. YOU, the match director, sets the classes and where the shooter falls is where he falls into the class. You may be on to something here...

That would be hard to sandbag since you really don't know where you would end up until it was completely over.

Agreed

Interesting concept.

I am not a prize table guy, I shoot for fun, but IF there has to be a prize table, this is as good of an idea as there is.

I still vote to show up, shoot, laugh, and have a good time tho.

[Hardball]

I gotta tell ya DP, I am not a fan of "leaving out" classes, etc. and I tend to agree that the "order of finish" awards system is a reward from the lower classes to the higher classes.

I can see a match being rather empty.

I liked what we did with the FLSSC. Matter of fact, I walked away with nothing but hard work put into them and a pair of grips, but I liked what we did.

Only change in that format that needs to be made is that we run it as a Limited match. Same challenging types of stages, same enthusiasm, etc.

Precluding the point that, say, 14 guns, half go to top guys, one to staff, the rest by random as was stated earlier (whatever the numbers you gave, not looking back at this point), there are shooters who will feel shorted in the end.

A pat on the back with "Nice 70%" would be offensive to some especially when they have busted their butts to get it. Sandbaggers are going to be sandbaggers no matter what sport it is. I agree that we shouldn't reward it, but there is no real alternative to actually make EVERY shooter feel as though they are part of the sport. If it weren't for us B class shooters, you GMs wouldn't have anything to do but brag to each other.

I will help with anything that needs to be done, but man, let's debate it a bit before we tick some folks off.

[Joe4d]

Screw the guns, everybody at the match allready has one, how about cases of bullets and primers, with the prices lately they're worth more than the guns...

I think alot of people are missing the point of the B, C shooters. Noobody is whining about not winning a gun, and nobody goes to a match to win a gun. They go because they want to but you also like at least a shot at whatever prizes are there. No fun at all knowing your entry fee paid for prizes you dont have a snowballs chance in Hades to win. I would say a Plaque for class winners, and higher volume of less expensive prizes.

[dirtypool40]

OK, re-centering of topic. I get it, you guys want to fight over prize table. So, No more prize table talk for now.

Let's talk about the match, not the prize table.

Teams?

special awards for single stacks and minor?

All courses 14-31 rounds?

Other ideas?

NO MORE PRIZE TABLE TALK, PLEASE.

[AA-Wolf]

Teams? YES, a stated earlier, a major caliber, a minor caliber and a single stack would be a team.

special awards for single stacks and minor? Sure, why not. High LEO, High Lady, High Junior (probably givens)

All courses 14-31 rounds? Sounds fair

Other ideas? I always like odd starting position and ready state of the weapon, but I know most shooters do not, but it just makes things different. Also an all steel stage without a par time, just to see who is the fastest. Another idea is a theme for the match, like following a movie or a book, just to give it some life. Or scrape all these ideas and just run a down home shooting match if that's what most shooters want. Hell, put a poll up for that!

[dirtypool40]

Good stuff Mike.

I like the team thing, especially if there's no prizes by placement, there will be more of a fun "let's get in and, who cares if I win" attitude.

I like theme stages / matches. We did that with the FL SS 00, all horror movies, (Who remembers "Army of Darkness" and shooting through the cobwebs at the zombies, and blasting out the back of the coffin in the last position?). I know PaulW remembers the "book".

Here's another idea; I've heard back in the day roughly 1980 they ran a nationals with factory ammo and ALL STEEL. Now I don't want to run an all steel match, but what about an all steel field course?

I have an idea I've always wanted to try, another "Walter Mitty" / mall ninja scenario, of an intense PAR TIME field course. Sort of a little "Splinter Cell" fantasy where you tear through a door, and down a short hallway filled with swinging shoots and no-shoots, towards a second door. There would be a stop plate through the door. I'd probably make it worth 50 points or something so you'd HAVE to get it. You'd only have say 10 seconds to do the whole thing and I'd make sure you couldn't get it all (I'll use PaulW and his open gun to set the par). The trick is, you'll need to get the stop plate, but once you shoot the stop plate, the stage is over so shooters of different levels would have to gear a plan to get what they could and still cinch the stop plate.

I have one inspired by drills Jerry Barnhart set up. Sort of a tight field course in a room with lots of ports where if you figure it out you never have to stop moving and shooting.

And what about a pistol version of "Tail Gunner" where we drive you out of the stage back to front in a golf cart and you shoot out the back?

Edited October 24, 2007 by dirtypool40

[zhunter]

Golf carts and guns are not safe.

Teams, good idea.

Here is my take on it, and remember, I am a single stacker, but... there won't be enough of us to field enough teams, so....

Teams are made up of:

1 GM or M, 1 A, 1 B, 1 C and 1 D SORRY no un-classifieds, just not fair

Total match points per team wins!!! ALL Limited!!!

[Micah]

Great googly-moogly DP...after reading your last post, I do believe I would not miss those stages for anything!

[SmittyFL]

I saw Smitty lurking. Surely if anyone should be burnt out and tell me to save my sanity it should be him. Are you the voice of reason Smitty, or do you wanna defend the good name of the Gunshine state against all comers???

1) Coming off 12+ days of my life putting together a match I'd say you'd have to be crazy to do it.

2) If it's a shootin' match I'll be there.

3) Big prize table, no classes.......aaahh the way God, JMB and Cooper intended it!!!

[Radical Precision Designs]

Good stuff Mike.

I like the team thing, especially if there's no prizes by placement, there will be more of a fun "let's get in and, who cares if I win" attitude.

I like theme stages / matches. We did that with the FL SS 00, all horror movies, (Who remembers "Army of Darkness" and shooting through the cobwebs at the zombies, and blasting out the back of the coffin in the last position?). I know PaulW remembers the "book".

Here's another idea; I've heard back in the day roughly 1980 they ran a nationals with factory ammo and ALL STEEL. Now I don't want to run an all steel match, but what about an all steel field course?

I have an idea I've always wanted to try, another "Walter Mitty" / mall ninja scenario, of an intense PAR TIME field course. Sort of a little "Splinter Cell" fantasy where you tear through a door, and down a short hallway filled with swinging shoots and no-shoots, towards a second door. There would be a stop plate through the door. I'd probably make it worth 50 points or something so you'd HAVE to get it. You'd only have say 10 seconds to do the whole thing and I'd make sure you couldn't get it all (I'll use PaulW and his open gun to set the par). The trick is, you'll need to get the stop plate, but once you shoot the stop plate, the stage is over so shooters of different levels would have to gear a plan to get what they could and still cinch the stop plate.

I have one inspired by drills Jerry Barnhart set up. Sort of a tight field course in a room with lots of ports where if you figure it out you never have to stop moving and shooting.

DP-

I like the idea of a "house clearing" stage. It helps your skills of quick decision making in a controlled scenario. While doing a stage, or a portion of one as you describe above is real nice and challenging, its main interest is to the "gamers" (by the way nothing wrong with gaming it, it's all fun...) who can work up a strategy only AFTER studying it.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could design a similar scenario, but take the gaming/pre planning element out ?? Like having three or more ports in a wall that are spring loaded and released/opened by pulling a cord as you enter, but the release can only be done to one, (the RO would choose which one prior to the start) leaving the others closed and forcing you to shoot the targets from the open port only. That port would be closed immediately, precluding anyone to "scope" the shots while pasting to pre-plan a strategy. Or a popper that can activate three swingers, but only one is actually activated, by random choice, so the shooter has no idea which one he/she will be shooting at. Make use of some sort of "last minute improvisation need" with no real advantage or disadvantage, and force the shooter to act spontaneously.

Just some spice ...

Edited October 24, 2007 by Radical Precision Designs

[j2fast]

I really like the idea of a "surprise" stage, something to really challenge the shooter's problem solving and awareness under the strain of the clock. How about a surprise stage with a PAR time where the only info given is hit count, start position, and location of the stop plate.....

[rgkeller]

Call it the Iron Sights Classic.

Production, SS, and Limited.

Since sandbaggers are to be discouraged - no Limited 10.

Teams - one each.

Prizes only for teams, plaques for individuals.

GM is a 1. M is a 2, A is a 3 etc etc.

Team make up must total at least seven.

Or maybe eight.

Edited October 24, 2007 by rgkeller

[dirtypool40]

1) Coming off 12+ days of my life putting together a match I'd say you'd have to be crazy to do it. - I figured that.

2) If it's a shootin' match I'll be there. - I expected that.

3) Big prize table, no classes.......aaahh the way God, JMB and Cooper intended it!!! - THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKN' ABOUT!!!!

Great googly-moogly DP...after reading your last post, I do believe I would not miss those stages for anything!

Great, and I'm just getting started. We'll see you there.

As to Jay's comment, maybe BEER, guns and golfcarts aren't safe, but a "tailgunner" style stage has been done safely before.

As to Team competition, treat it like handicaps in pool leagues. G=6, M=5, A=4, B=3, C=2, D=1. You need 3 shooters, max of say 11 points. So some sort of mix like a D, an A and a G. oooooooooor an M, a B and a C. We could tweak it a little, no "U's" allowed. Either get classed by then or you can sign up as the highest you have ala SS. There probably won't be that many G's there anyway, so getting a solid M & A together with a killer sandbaggin' C might be the way to victory. Smitty will have to keep Schoonie an A for now and find himself a D. Don't even try that noise Sharyn.

Or Do we like the Different guns on a team thing? A major High cap, a minor and a single stack? I'll open a new poll. Don't flood drift this thread.

But here's the burning question: What do we award the top team? A case of beer? Frames? Free Shoots? Give me some ideas?

I like there to be bunches of ways to win prizes, all in one match. So far you'd have side matches, order of finish, random drawing, and team placement. Keep the team input coming, but stay off the prize table for now. I have ideas, and I'll post something for you to chew on soon enough. That post about "bigger the prize table, bigger the turn out" has me thinking. This idea started as a head's up rumble, so we'll see.

There I go, asking for Team Prize input after I just asked for no more prize table talk. Oh well.

And I know everyone will show up with a gun, but is there any better prize than a gun, or a frame even?!?! I'd love to have a bunch of guns to give away, and maybe frames for the special catagory winners. Wouldn't that be great? High lady takes home a cuctom ser # frame?!?!?

Edited October 24, 2007 by dirtypool40

[dirtypool40]

Team Composition Poll is up please VOTE!!!

[.40AET]

DP- I forgot to add. The giant field course of steel would lock it up! The match sounds AWESOME!!!! I've always shot for fun....and this sounds like a lot of fun. Flying home with more than I brought down to the match is a bonus.

IF...I come down. I expect to see a lot of beer and Tequila after the match.

[dirtypool40]

I'm sure that can be arranged.