The FTDR

[00bullitt]

I should listen myself and stay out of this but...............

KDMoore used the example of a fight in the NBA as a comparsion. I think it is a good one.

1st off the ref's know for a fact that the fight happened. The SO for a fact knows that the shooter fired an additional shot over the mininum required. The difference is the NBA ref knows any fight is illegal, the SO knows that not all extra shots are illegal. The ref can review the tape of the fight to determine who started it. The SO has to guess as to the reason for the extra shot.

The upside to the NBA is there is a clear rule which states "No Fighting". The downside to IDPA is the rules say for a given action sometimes it's legal and sometimes it's not. The NBA says if you throw the first punch you are gone. IDPA says, the SO has to determine your mental intent to determine if the action is punishable. The ref can confirm intent (first punch), the SO can only guess. The point most people are trying to make is that it is not fair to the competitors to award a match ending penalty based on someones ability to guess someone else's mental intent.

Over nearly 10 years of shooting IDPA I have fired a lot of extra shots. Some were needed, some were not. Some resulted in a better reload, some turned a miss into a "-0", some forced an extra reload, some were just wasted time, and I am sure a couple were all of the above. All most all of them were fired instinctively because I didn't like something when I broke the shot. None of them were an attempt to cheat, which is what the FTDR was supposely designed to address.

If you are going to keep a penalty for round dumping, make it a procedural. At least then I can recover from it........

I couldn't agree more. Well said.

[Greg Bell]

If you are going to keep a penalty for round dumping, make it a procedural. At least then I can recover from it........

+1

[freeidaho]

Over nearly 10 years of shooting IDPA I have fired a lot of extra shots. Some were needed, some were not. Some resulted in a better reload, some turned a miss into a "-0", some forced an extra reload, some were just wasted time, and I am sure a couple were all of the above. All most all of them were fired instinctively because I didn't like something when I broke the shot. None of them were an attempt to cheat, which is what the FTDR was supposely designed to address.

Bob,

You make an interesting point. How many of these extra shots were awarded an FTDR for round dumping?

kr

[Bob Hostetter]

I have never received a FTDR but I have been close enough to have to argue about it.........

[tightloop]

Over nearly 10 years of shooting IDPA I have fired a lot of extra shots. Some were needed, some were not. Some resulted in a better reload, some turned a miss into a "-0", some forced an extra reload, some were just wasted time, and I am sure a couple were all of the above. All most all of them were fired instinctively because I didn't like something when I broke the shot. None of them were an attempt to cheat, which is what the FTDR was supposely designed to address.

Bob,

You make an interesting point. How many of these extra shots were awarded an FTDR for round dumping?

kr

Comments like that are uncalled for....That's just lame...

[ima45dv8]

Over nearly 10 years of shooting IDPA I have fired a lot of extra shots. Some were needed, some were not. Some resulted in a better reload, some turned a miss into a "-0", some forced an extra reload, some were just wasted time, and I am sure a couple were all of the above. All most all of them were fired instinctively because I didn't like something when I broke the shot. None of them were an attempt to cheat, which is what the FTDR was supposely designed to address.

Bob,

You make an interesting point. How many of these extra shots were awarded an FTDR for round dumping?

kr

Comments like that are uncalled for....That's just lame...

Sounds like a valid question to me.

[freeidaho]

I have never received a FTDR but I have been close enough to have to argue about it.........

Thanks Bob! kr

[00bullitt]

OK.....just curious.......who has ever been warned/accused of an FTDR and how did it make you feel? Has anyone actually ever been penalized with an FTDR and what for?

[tightloop]

OK.....just curious.......who has ever been warned/accused of an FTDR and how did it make you feel? Has anyone actually ever been penalized with an FTDR and what for?

Got one....made me mad...stopped shooting IDPA because of that incident and due to the lack of consistent rulings, just like that one..

Accused of unsportsman like conduct cause the Area Coordinator could not show me where in the LGB (rule book at the time) where it said you had to declare if you were going to use 7 or 8 round mags when shooting CDP...happened on the last stage of an Area Match and I got it because I embarassed him in front of 150 shooters...he could not show me cause there was no rule...

More you want to know...PM me.

[ima45dv8]

Tod, you've already heard my story, and I won't go into details here*. But I was threatened with one once and managed to get the guy so unsure of the situation that I was able to walk away before he could decide.

*If you decide to tell of a personal tragedy based on an FTDR, please be cool. This has been an interesting discussion and we can keep it going with a little restraint.

[Bob Hostetter]

My complaint isn't based on my getting a FTDR for round dumping or anything else. I like to believe I am fast enough that I can be successful playing within the rules as long as everyone is playing by the same rules and is getting the same calls. My complaint is based on the fact that I don't believe SO's should be required to enforce subjective rules requiring on the spot mental evaluations of the shooters intent. It's not fair to the competitors or the SO's. And that's all I ask, a fair chance to win.......

[tightloop]

My complaint isn't based on my getting a FTDR for round dumping or anything else. I like to believe I am fast enough that I can be successful playing within the rules as long as everyone is playing by the same rules and is getting the same calls. My complaint is based on the fact that I don't believe SO's should be required to enforce subjective rules requiring on the spot mental evaluations of the shooters intent. It's not fair to the competitors or the SO's. And that's all I ask, a fair chance to win.......

I LOVE that comment...not a fair chance to compete..but to Win...that is great..

[rvb]

OK.....just curious.......who has ever been warned/accused of an FTDR and how did it make you feel? Has anyone actually ever been penalized with an FTDR and what for?

Been indirectly warned... local match and another competator says some time after I had finished the stage, "heard you round dumped on stage xyz." Huh? Meaning people were not even willing to question it to my face.

Because of that I remember the stage to this day, even though this was a year or two ago. Stage starts w/ gun on table, 6 shots into a target only 2 yds away, go to cover at P2 and 2 ea on two more targets (now to 10 rounds min), then while advancing 2 ea on 3 more targets. A reload trap just as the book says to avoid.

I plan to do a tac load after the first 10 rounds to be topped while advancing, but on the 6-round hose-fest I trigger froze on either shot 3 or 4 and the gun was way pushed down when the shot broke (pure type1 focus at that distance/speed) so I hit a 7th shot. The extra split was propbably <0.15 so worth it for a possible 0.5 -1 penalty, right? This meant I had a SLR before leaving cover vs a RWR. Turns out at 2 yds it didn't matter, I still caught the -0 so I had 7 rounds in there.

As someone else pointed out, the concept of shot calling is lost on many because when I brought the issue up later they kept saying I could have seen all the hits on the target and didn't need that 7th shot... the idea of not even looking for holes in the target was a lost argument.

-rvb

Edited October 4, 2007 by rvb

[Shootingirons45]

I received a FTDR for having too many rds in my mag (12). The course of fire required 12 rds. and to be candid it really FUBARed me. I knew the slide ought to have locked back on the 11 rd and when it didn't, I did a failure drill. In short, I blew the stage. The SO initially gave me a 3 sec Procedural call but after several in the "peanut gallery" hollered he changed it to a FTDR. This was at a local match. To be candid, I had and still have several feelings on the penalty. First off let me say that I earned whatever penalty the SO imposed. The second feeling I had was that the SO ought to have stuck with his original call and not been influenced by the "peanut gallery". Third, I took the FTDR like a man. S**t happens, and this is a game and the FTDR is a part of those rules. While I may not like it I shoot within the rules imposed as a part of the participation in the game.

I also think that any shooter that's damned fool enough to proclaim in front of a audience that he/she is going to dump rds is asking for a FTDR. To fault a RO/SO for applying a rule, or rules is folly. We always see on here that the shooter is given the benefit of the doubt..why I ask, not give that same benefit to the RO/SO? I've been shooting a long time..since 1981 before there was a USPSA and IDPA since it's inception. I've seen good, damned good, bad, damned bad RO/SO's. Most of the bad ones were weeded out in time by the MDs. One of the issues that's not been mentioned here is that we, as human beings are all different. We see things differently and judge things differently. I have given, and will continue to give the RO/SO's the benefit of the doubt when they make a call..good, bad, or otherwise.

The SO in question ran a stage at the 06 Nationals. I had never met him before nor have I met him after. My impression was that he was fair, consistent and professional. If he made a call this yr that folks don't like then I'd suggest that folks get more involved in RO/SOing and do better...

Just my 30 cents.

[XRe]

Reading through this thread, I figured I'd just throw out a few tidbits....

I know Iron Mike, and have worked with him in the past. I wouldn't be so quick to judge Mike - he's always struck me as easy going and very fair - he even made room in his IDPA matches for us USPSA boys to shoot our race gear in "Outlaw" class on a couple of occasions. He's good people, in my estimation. If you don't know him, you might think twice about judging him, especially in an open forum.

The USPSA folks that have followed any rules discussions that I've been involved in know that I have a penchant for clear, objective rules that don't require an RO/SO to try to guess what the shooter is thinking. I currently don't play IDPA (though I'm not opposed to it, just don't have the right gear right now), so I don't have a stake in the IDPA rulebook, and I wouldn't want to judge how the game is run, etc - its my opinion that if the rulebook could be simplified a little bit so that it doesn't put the SO in this position, and such that there is a well known "If you do A, you're gonna get B" type of thing, it would avoid all this mess.... The USPSA rulebook and interpretations sometimes have similar parallels...

Finally, a game is a game, and every game has rules. If you don't like the rules, don't play the game. The rules of a game are what they are - and arguing that some game's rules are wrong because you play a different game with different rules is a bit silly, isn't it??? This isn't meant to be a flame - just more of a frustration, as I'm getting tired seeing all this USPSA vs IDPA type stuff again. We're all shooters, and we'd do a bigger service to each other by supporting our similarities rather than constantly bickering about our differences....

[racerba]

I'm getting tired seeing all this USPSA vs IDPA type stuff ...

I don't think this is a USPSA vs. IDPA argument although USPSA have been mentioned. I think that most of the argument here is that FTDR penalty is just wrong as it is very subjective to what the SO believes that the shooter is doing. No rule should be as allowing the SO to be as subjective as this rule.

[Singlestack Wonder]

The FTDR rule helps IDPA to maintain a sport that is about shooting and not gamesmenship. While gamesmenship is OK in some other shooting sports, it is not allowed in IDPA. For example, in another sport, a trend started to present itself when competitors ran outside of the stage boundries at one point and re-entered at another point to circumvent the prescribed stage route to gain an advantage. Since a hard rule was not present in the rules, it was deemed to be OK. In IDPA, this type of behavior would receive an FTDR penalty and justly so. As stated before, rules from other shooting sports have no validity in IDPA and vice-versa. When shooting IDPA, follow the rules just as you would if shooting an ICORE, Bullseye, Steel, or IPSC match.

[Loves2Shoot]

The FTDR rule helps IDPA to maintain a sport that is about shooting and not gamesmenship.

I still don't see how subjective penalties that can be retroactively issued or randomly issued help any legitimate sport.

Good courses of fire elliminate "gaming" of stages, you don't need penalties to take care of that IMO.

Since IPDA has the most non shooting related requirements and penalties of any action pistol sport I've shot, you can't seriously say it is, "about shooting and not gamesmenship." All it takes is to read the rulebook and it is quite obvious that it was a sport made NOT to be IPSC, which is fine. It is still a game and gamesmanship is important in games.

It almost seems like trying to "purify" a sport, they made it even more open to gaming and exploiting the rules and put WAY TO MUCH presure on the SO's to make impossible calls.

I am VERY fortunate that our IDPA director is awesome (Michael Boyd) and understands how to make IDPA a blast to shoot and challenging all skills.

[Suches]

Round dumping is very easy to deal with - never call it. If enough of us SOs never call it then maybe BW will get the message. Let me repeat myself. I will never give a penality for round dumping.

When you shoot my stage at the Georgia match this weekend shoot as many rounds into a target as you wish - that is as long as you are not in my Division.

Dang it, Joe. I wish I had read this before the Ga match today.

[kdmoore]

Not really retroactive in some aspects. Called while the match was fresh, and as soon as the SO was sure about the infraction. That's more the nature of the infraction. If you shoot a stage with me, and I see you RD I'll likely not call it. 30 minutes later, If I hear you say "I RD'd on kmoores stage" then that's when you have earned that FTDR (for me anyways). If the match is over and scores are posted, and then I hear you say "I RD'd ...." then I'll say nothing.

This isn't a faulty stage. I don't think you can build a stage anywhere where someone doesn't try to cheat.

The only issue here is that it's hard to enforce this rule. For some folks this means to fix the rules, for others it means we should fix our shooters. Maybe we should start asking the shooters to explain the extra rounds they fire ...

[Loves2Shoot]

Not really retroactive in some aspects. Called while the match was fresh, and as soon as the SO was sure about the infraction. That's more the nature of the infraction. If you shoot a stage with me, and I see you RD I'll likely not call it. 30 minutes later, If I hear you say "I RD'd on kmoores stage" then that's when you have earned that FTDR (for me anyways). If the match is over and scores are posted, and then I hear you say "I RD'd ...." then I'll say nothing.

This isn't a faulty stage. I don't think you can build a stage anywhere where someone doesn't try to cheat.

The only issue here is that it's hard to enforce this rule. For some folks this means to fix the rules, for others it means we should fix our shooters. Maybe we should start asking the shooters to explain the extra rounds they fire ...

Sorry, I wasn't reffering to any particular stage or match or even RD'ing in particular. When a competitior has left the match after compeleting it was what I meant by retroactive, which apparently has occured by a group of SO's in the past at a mjor match. Once the score is recorded it make sense that should be the end of the scoring for the stages.

[Singlestack Wonder]

All it takes is to read the rulebook and it is quite obvious that it was a sport made NOT to be IPSC, which is fine.

Completely unfounded statement. So that someone else reading this topic is not confused with the above statement, here's a statement directly from the rulebook:

The International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) is the governing

body of a shooting sport that simulates self-defense scenarios and real

life encounters. It was founded in 1996 as a response to the desires of

shooters worldwide. The organization now boasts membership of more

than 11,000, including members in 19 foreign countries.

One of the unique facets of this sport is that it is geared toward the new

or average shooter, yet is fun, challenging and rewarding for the

experienced shooter. The founders developed the sport so that practical

gear and practical guns may be used competitively. An interested person

can spend a minimal amount on equipment and still be competitive.

The main goal is to test the skill and ability of the individual, not

equipment or gamesmanship. “Competition only” equipment is not

permitted in this sport.

[Fireant]

Well I kind of recieved one, then they jumped right over the FTDR and gave me a match DQ and ban from the club. Damn, if I knew that was coming I would have been glad to show them what unsportsmanlike behavior really looks like so there would never be any doubt in their minds about what it really is in the future . Some days it does not pay to be nice and try to be helpful.

[mattbeck]

[

If you are going to keep a penalty for round dumping, make it a procedural. At least then I can recover from it........

The whole Idea of the FTDR is so that you can't recover from it. I don't really know that I agree with it for round dumping. I do know that as an SO, I have overheard competitors planning to dump and extra round to get a better reload. I called them on it and told them they would get an FTDR for it. I understand the concept of calling shots, even though I can't do it , so I don't think every extra shot is round dumping, but I also know and figure everone else knows of at least one shooter that never finishes a COF in the proper round count unless it's limited. Ya'll know the kind of shooter I'm talking about. He'll usually have at least one target with 3 -0 holes and seems to always load at slide lock. That's the shooter that I think deserves and earns an FTDR.

Just my .02.

[mattbeck]

[

Sorry, Double post

Edited October 31, 2007 by mattbeck