Shooting Minor Pf

[BigDave]

Maybe we covered this elsewhere, but I have some questions.

I've adopted the attitude that I basically suck. My accuracy is often deplorable (too many D hits and Mike's), my shot calling ability is almost non-existant, my reloads are horrid, my transitions are weak at best. I'm basically going to try and rebuild my skills from the roots up.

I was wondering if anyone here has purposely shot Minor PF in Limited or Limited 10 (hell, Open for that matter, Revolver too) to, in a way, force you to be more accurate via the scoring? I was kicking the idea around in my head today and I think I will go with it, unless someone can state some rather excellent reasons why its a bad idea (in which I'm all ears, I need an education).

While were on the subject, anyone know of a good supplier of 40 cal 135 gr bullets?

[JMD]

""I was wondering if anyone here has purposely shot Minor PF in Limited... unless someone can state some rather excellent reasons why its a bad idea (in which I'm all ears, I need an education).""

I have been forced to shoot minor as a result of some rather aggressive surgery.

If you are looking for discipline that comes from within. If you are able to shoot major – by all means do so.

Consider an A/A. Major 10 points. Minor 10 points. Even

Consider an A/C. Major 9 points. Minor 8 points. Down 20%

Consider an A/D. Major 7 points. Minor 6 points. Down 40%

Consider a C/D. Major 6 points. Minor 4 points. Down 60%

If you shoot all A’s no problem. If you have C’s and D‘s you are down 10 – 20% per target. How much faster will you have to shoot to maintain your present point count?

Practice accuracy and "smooth". I know, it sounds so easy...

Good luck,

Joel

[Chriss Grube]

Sounds more like a mental issue than a minor/major issue. You think you suck therefore you do suck. The key problems that seem to need work are shot calling, accuracy and speed. Practice your shot calling and slow down to get your hits. You can screw up shooting minor just as easy as you can shooting major. If you can slow down in minor just do the same thing shooting major. You won't have to learn to retime the gun either.

[benos]

BigDave,

I agree with Chriss, the problem lies within your attitude, not your equipment. Although now and then making an equipment change can supply a temporary crutch, in your case I feel it would be better to return to the beginning - letting ALL preconceived notions about what you think shooting is, especially IPSC shooting, go. This is not easy, especially when you show up to a match, and therefore care about your score.

Set some goals that harmonize with "your new plan." One new plan, in matches, might be to shoot an entire match dropping as few points as possible. Keep this new goal in action for a series of matches, comparing match to match ONLY by amount of points dropped. Be sure to tell your buddies your new goal, to help remove the pressure to be "an IPSC shooter."

Read the sentence in italics until you have it, or its essence, in your brain 24/7.

[BigDave]

Brian and Chris - thanks. Well, part of the reason I brought this up was the attitude I had when shooting, I didn't like it at all. And what you mentioned Brian about letting go, is exactly what my goal is. I know that I have most if not all of the skills within me, I'm allowing other things to get in the way. When I said I suck, I wasn't trying to say " I suck" more like "I'm unhappy with my performance and attitude, and I want to do the right things to change them."

Right now, I could care less about match performance, as long as I'm seeing improvements in my skills. Perhaps that was my biggest problem before. I was trying to perform at a higher level (probably higher than I was capable of at this moment) and it killed me mentally.

[benos]

BigDave,

I feel I felt what your last post indicated when I wrote my reply.

I forgot to add in my original suggestion - when "judging" matches by number of points dropped, count every miss on steel as minus three points.

be

[mark123]

Consider an A/A. Major 10 points. Minor 10 points. Even

Consider an A/C. Major 9 points. Minor 8 points. Down 20%

Consider an A/D. Major 7 points. Minor 6 points. Down 40%

Consider a C/D. Major 6 points. Minor 4 points. Down 60%

What is A/A, A/C, A/D and C/D? What does it mean?

[Chriss Grube]

Mark123,

Scoring for 2 hits on a target.

Major

A=5

B and C = 4

D=2

Minor

A=5

B and C =3

D = 1

[Flexmoney]

Dave,

Hear me know...and believe me later...You are RUSHING your shots.

Visual Patience!

I'd almost bet you aren't focused on the front sight either.

Quit seeing the targets. See the sights.

You just HAVE to wait for your eyes to pull back and focus on the front sight. You HAVE to wait. You HAVE to wait.

(I know, becasue I was doing the same thing in practice today. And...I'll be fighting it this weekend in matches.)

[h4444]

You've gotten some great advice above, I'll throw out one little item I've found with major/minor ammo.

For the longest time, I really liked shooting Clays behind a 230 grain bullet in my .45,,,,,I liked the nice soft feel. I've since done some experimenting and found some loads that have a higher felt recoil, but work better with my pistol from a standpoint that my front sight just snaps back on the target better,,,,,I've found that due to my shooting style, lower felt recoil really isn't going to help me as much as tuning my ammo and gun toward snapping that front sight back on the target(s) as quickly as possible.

Just some thoughts,,,,I don't know if you reload or not.

But, I would first follow the advice given above, second give consideration to what your sights are doing.......My current load seem snappier,,,but I like it more since my scores have gone up a little.

H4444

[mcoliver]

It's really amazing how all of us every once in a while fall into the the trap of looking for technical solutions to a really mental problem. Probably because a tangible idea always feels like an easy way out.

What always worked for me when I'm in "the pit" is just to go back to the basics I learned when I first shot a gun. And that it to hold it there until I see the shot break. Be at peace with your sight. Good luck and be safe.

[gm iprod]

JMD,

Slight correction.

A/A 10 points even. Correct

A/C Maj 9 points. Min 8 points down 11%. 9-8=1 Therefore down 1/9th. 1 divided by 9 = .111 = 11%

A/D Maj 7 points. Min 6 points down 14.28%. 7-6=1 Therefore down 1/7th. 1 divided by 7 = .1428 = 14.28%

C/D Maj 6 points. Min 4 points down 33.3%. 6-4=2 Therefore 2/6ths down. 2 divided by 6 = .333 = 33.3%

With IPSC you can't miss fast enough to make up.

All else fails follow the advice of all the above. Back to basics and keeping your eye on the front sight.

With all that said I do shoot minor in IPSC, I have worked to eliminate misses and no shoots. I then started on eliminating the D's, still doing this. The last 2 big matches I shot I had no misses and no no shoots. But the D's kept rearing their ugly head. If I had the time to shoot more IPSC I would certainly go Major.

Nosler do 135gr JHP. Sierra also do a 135gr JHP.

There are a couple of guys who make 140gr Lead but I can't seem to remember. The most prevelant mould is a Magma 140gr so anyone using their machines may have it. You could try asking Magma to give you a list of manufacturers in your area that have their machines.

[Garfield]

Hi,

As said by others, I don't think major/minor should be that much of an issue.

Heck, I shoot Production Division (which is always scored minor), where the PF floor is 125 with a PF of 145 in my Glock 17. This is way too much, but I don't mind. The ammo was quite cheap (bought loads and loads of it) and it is pretty accurate.

I just make sure that I have FUN !

Of course if you want to be a pro, you might consider a slightly different approach, but for all others: IPSC shooting is just some way to spend your free time, so make sure you enjoy it.

If you don't have fun anymore, why bother ?

Best Regards,

Arvid

[MattBurkett]

It's really amazing how all of us every once in a while fall into the the trap of looking for technical solutions to a really mental problem. Probably because a tangible idea always feels like an easy way out.

Wow, gonna need a cup of ZenTea after that one! That's a great statement.

-----------

Have you asked yourself why you shoot? What are your goals? Where is the conflict happening?What is your personality type and how does it affect your approach to life and shooting? Sometimes the problem is inside, the exterior results are only the symptons. If you want to have a mental talk sometime, don't hesitate to give me a call.

Take care and best of luck,

[BigDave]

OK, time for a range report.

Lets just say that I believe that I have made great strides since I started this thread. In practice today, it was unlike any ohter I've had. I was calling my shots (most, not all, got work to do), and most of all (you were exactly correct Flex and Brian) was being visually patient with my sights. Before today, I thought that waiting on my sights was going to cost me more than it would help. Boy was I wrong. Its amazing actually how little time it takes to make an accurate shot. Reading your sights, being patient with them and a consistent follow-through. What irk's me is not that I didn't already know this (on some level, I did), but I didn't apply it till now.

What really suprised me is that I was conciously slowing myself down physically to take the time and break my shots accurately, but by doing so, I was keeping a pace similar to the way I shot before when I wasn't calling my shots. Twix and Rhino actually started to call me D### when I was getting concerned when I'd have a C hit as opposed to a A hit. All I can say is that it is a great feeling. I still have lots of work to do and am not near finished, but today was a great breakthrough.

Thanks to all for your words of wisdom.

Oh yeah, it was with Major PF ammo. After today, it wouldn't have made a lick of difference what PF ammo I was shooting, b/c I've decided it (PF and gun) has little if anything to do with what I was dealing with. To take it one step further, I haven't shot a single round since I started this thread. I have, however, shot thousands in my head. Proof positive its a mental/visual hurdle, not a mechanical impairment.

[Flexmoney]

Dave,

Ain't it cool!!!

Great post...there is so much in there...

[Flexmoney]

...I have made great strides...in practice... unlike any other I've had...I was calling my shots

Awesome!

Sooo many times that I have had to tell myself to look internally for the answers...

...being visually patient with my sights

Visual patience...THE key. As a shooter...when you get this right...it is like a granite clue brick has hit you in the head.

Before today, I thought that waiting on my sights was going to cost me more than it would help. Boy was I wrong.

I sure is hard to except, isn't it?

Its amazing actually how little time it takes to make an accurate shot.

That is what the Grand Masters keep telling us.

I was getting concerned when I'd have a C hit as opposed to a A hit. All I can say is that it is a great feeling.

Just AWESOME.

Dave, know that you aren't alone in your break-thru, and that your post has helped others as well. I got an email a while back from a shooter that was going thru similar stuff. He was able to benefit from your thread and the replies that were received.

Next hurdle....

What comes next can be just as tough...

You have to be able to trust that visual patience.

(I love this stuff )

[Ron Ankeny]

Big Dave:

I am happy for you. Good thread and keep up the good work.

[twix]

Heh. Yes we were calling BD names because he was complaining about getting "C's" in shoot on the move drills!

The prelude to the shoot-n-scoot drills was the "call your shot" drill(divide the target into four quadrants, shoot off a bench at 25 yards aiming at the "x", then close your eyes and call the quadrant).

BD was smooooth baby. On the scoot at 20 yards. Grousing about "C's". Pul-leeze!

[rhino]

Yeah, BigDave was a BigBaby about the C hits!

I'm happy when I hit the paper.

BigDave was kickin' butt when he was shootin' 'n' movin'. I was impressed! I missed quite a few, but it was the first time I'd ever practiced it. I've done it in matches quite a bit, but I never actually did it outside of a formal match (I saw some guys doing it while advancing on a target during the 1997 Area 5 match, so I tried it too). It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that the key is doing the moving with stuff below the waist, while doing the shooting with everything above the waist.

I didn't tap into any of the emotional moments that apparently happened, though. Maybe 'cause I was late. Again. As usual.

Here's the funny thing: at the end of the session, twix made us shoot five shots at 25 yards at just the head. I had five misses! I think that .45ACP just has too much recoil for me to handle. Then we backed up to 50 yards and shot five more shots (at any part of the paper). I aimed at the "neckline" and had three hits in upper A/B, one in the C just below the perf of the upper A/B, and one a little toward the right shoulder at about the same elevation. Five for five. I wouldn't bet on me ever being able to repeat actuallty hitting the paper at 50 yards.

Re: calling shots . . . I was in a defensive shooting class last year with a Gunsite adjunct instructor. As they all do, he stressed follow through on the sights (what we call "calling the shot") and when I actually did what I was told, I could shoot one hole groups. Apparently I require supervision in order to observe the fundamentals of marksmanship.

[Singlestack]

I think that .45ACP just has too much recoil for me to handle.

The bullet is gone before it kicks ya.

" As they all do, he stressed follow through on the sights (what we call "calling the shot") and when I actually did what I was told, I could shoot one hole groups."

This proves you can shoot a .45. Allow yourself to know this.

[rhino]

The bullet is gone before it kicks ya.

" As they all do, he stressed follow through on the sights (what we call "calling the shot") and when I actually did what I was told, I could shoot one hole groups."

This proves you can shoot a .45. Allow yourself to know this.

Sorry about that . . . I left out a "smilie" on that one. We were joking about it on Tuesday . . . I forgot all of the people reading this were not here!

But that's certainly good advice, so thank you!

[Liota]

Rhino,

Depending on what you are doing with the .45 ACP you can download it a bit and still make major pf. When I was training heavily a couple of years ago with a coach, he told me to download my rounds a bit so I wouldn't be shooting those "wrist breakers" my husband liked so much at the time. I did. I was loading 4.8 of Bullseye at the time and brought it down to 4.0. It was much smoother for practice and matches. Sight recovery time went up considerably as did my accuracy and ability to shoot well at matches.

As for my hits, he kept telling me it was two aimed shots, not a double-tap. Once I got that through my thick skull, all got much better.

Dave,

On the mental issue, one thing I have learned helps a lot is to clear my mind of everything at the line. I don't even think about the stage. Just let everything go. My friends tease me unmercifully right before I shoot so I can do that. I resulted in me, a D-class shooter, getting a 56% El Prez. Of course, the best was when I was shooting the last array of 8 pieces of steel in a stage and I could hear my coach behind me, "Sheeeeet!" Woohoo! for the rest of the match.

Just a couple of pennies on the pile.

Liota

[rhino]

Depending on what you are doing with the .45 ACP you can download it a bit and still make major pf.

Thanks for the advice!

Now it looks like my own smarta** mouth has written a check my body can't cash. I'm starting to actually believe that I do need to download my ammo! I'll have to call the factories and tell 'em!

Oh! I won a small IDPA match today. Or should that be ?

Fortunately for me, only four or five of the other people had shot matches before.

[benos]

I talked to BigDave on the phone Friday. I could tell by the words he used in his email that he'd "seen it," which is always exciting to hear. That's the good stuff.