Shooting Bay Boundaries

[Bear1142]

I've asked a couple of friends about this and we have a consensus on what we think is right, but we can't locate any rules about it. Here's the scenario. While doing a walk through on a local stage, it became apparent that you could gain a significant advantage by taking 1-2 steps UP the side of the berm to shoot over some low vision barriers instead of running to the other side of the range to engage the targets. The bay has very large berms and there was no danger to the shooter from other bays or any other type of issue that would raise safety concerns. It was clear the intent of the stage designer was to make you move around to different shooting positions and that this was extremely high on the "gaming" scale. The biggest question is "Is this legal?" It was safe to do, but violated the spirit/intent of the stage. For the record, nobody complained, or asked for a ruling, or for that matter even asked about it. It only came to me as an afterthought. I don't like the idea of stage designers having to consider the sides of the shooting bay when designing stages.

Erik

[David Olhasso]

At our local club we ususally don't bother with side fault lines. We have an understanding (which we must constantly remind some shooters) that the the edge of the shooting area begins when the berm starts to rise. At a big match, there is almost always a well marked fault line.

[tightloop]

Isn't that why they call it freestyle.

[B.J. Norris]

Erik, you gamer! As far as I know, there is no rule unless otherwise said in the walkthrough that says you may not walk up the berm. You've been to The Orchard, so you know we don't have side berms, we just lay fault lines.

[Vince Pinto]

No, there's no specific rule to prohibit you from running up the side of the berm however I, for one, would most certainly consider such actions to be Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

It's one thing to "game" a stage but it's another thing entirely to use side berms to gain an advantageous shooting position when it should be patently obvious that the side berms are there to catch bullets.

If we need to spell out elementary things like this, then I submit that Funk & Wagnalls should publish the 10 volumes of our next rulebook.

[Ron Ankeny]

Amen Vince.

[Al Capizzo]

At our club matches, vision barriers are understood to run from the ground to some point in space unless otherwise specified. 7 footers can't shoot over them and 2.5 footers can't shoot under them.

Al

[B.J. Norris]

Vince,

Don't you think thats kinda harsh? To me( As a stage designer/Match Director), the problem is the stage design. Now, being able to run up the side of the berm was a unforeseen problem that nobody really ever thought of. I say, its freestyle, and the shooter takes his or her own way to shoot the COF, and that side fault lines should have been put down to prevent such problems.

Now, me as a shooter. COOL! Nice job Erik, coming up with another thing to put in my bag of gamer tricks. I'll be taking a RO class in 2 weeks. I'll ask about running up the berm there.

[kaiserb]

I usually try to find a shoot over advantage. However most of the stages at the club I shoot at declare the barricades etc to extend up to infinity, so you do not shoot over them.

[Vince Pinto]

IPSC G34,

Yes, maybe I was a bit harsh, but how many ranges do you know where the match or stage briefings state (what our British mates would say is) "The bleedin' obvious"?

If we have to tell competitors that a side berm is designed to catch bullets and it's not a legitimate area from where to engage targets, then I think we should also add other warnings such as:

1) "This is not a kilt" under the typical graphic used to indicate ladies toilets;

2) "Not safe for sex" under the "Safety Area" signs;

3) "This side towards competitors" on the face of targets;

4) "Do not eat the big white mint" above the men's urinal;

5) "Bullet exits here" next to gun muzzles;

OK, OK, I'll take my medication now ........

[Bear1142]

B.J.,

Let me clarify my position. I did not come up with the idea and I don't agree with doing it (Vince's remarks), and to be direct, I never even considered it because of my background and having as much range time as I do. It was never an allowable option. As for the "gamer" call, ouch!, I know I occasionally get compared to phil, but c'mon:) Glad to hear things are going well at the orchard. Are you going to Area 6? If so, I'll see you there.

Erik

[B.J. Norris]

Erik, I say as long as its within the rules, I'll do pretty much anything to get a better view, time or whatever, but even I have my limits .... Even though you didn't come up with it, thanks for posting a new way to game a stage... As far as gaming goes, somebody has taken your place as king gamer at the Orchard (Lets just say he is the MD for Summer Blast.......)There's no way I'll be at A6, I'll be at the Buckeye Blast in Ohio, A4(maybe, it depends on if I go to Camp Shootout or not) and Natitonals will be about it, maybe I can get A7, but I don't see it.

[Ron Ankeny]

I am taking an RO class this weekend and I'll bring it up there, along with my other pet peeve....the immaculate "double". I really get tired of folks going well beyond gaming into the realm of stupidity. Think about this, when you scamper up the berm to gain elevation for the pupose of shooting over props or whatever, will the bullets be striking downward and into the bay floor (our floor is road base over sandstone) at unpredictable angles instead of passing through the targets and into the berm as intended? In the case of steel, will you strike at such an angle so as to cause the bullets to glance off into the target base and back into the crowd? There comes a time when common sense has to prevail. Anyone who is so intent on winning at any cost, including a stunt like running up a freaking berm, needs to do a bit of self examination.

[tightloop]

Ron

If you were at a match shooting in the squad just behind the Super Squad and saw one or all of them do it, would you consider it? Never take anything off the table. If it gained you 10% in your time for the stage, I would have to consider trying it. Call it obvious if you want, but it looks like a heck of a deal if it gains you time/points and there is nothing to prevent you doing it.

Shot the Alabama 2001 IDPA State shoot, and gamed a stage within legal boundaries. It was the difference between winning CDP Master and not. Not quite as obvious as running up the side berm, but it changed the manner in which the 20 or so people behind me ran the stage, much to the chagrin of the the 50 or so folks who shot it ahead of me. Turned it into a 12++ second stage instead of a 20++ one.

[Ron Ankeny]

tightloop:

In my neck of the woods I am considered the ultimate gamer. Would I game a stage according to the rules if it was safe and sane? Of course I would. But the issue in question is about running up a berm. In my view, any action that would compromise safety for the sake of winning is just not defensible. Likewise, there comes a time when certain behavior is just plain out of bounds whether there is a specific rule forbidding the behavior or not.

Now, let me ask you a question. Would you run up the side of a berm to shoot over a prop or group of no-shoot targets?

[John Heiter]

I agree with Ron. I'd have to vote no on running up the berms simply because it's a safety issue. If you get too high up on the berm you could be exposed to shooting from other areas of the range or exposing others to your stray shots. It's pretty tough for an RO below you to make the call on how high you were on the berm and if it was safe or not. If you want to argue that it was unsafe or that the berms are understood to be out of bounds I'll go along with you but not because someone "overgamed" the stage by doing it.

It does remind me of a local stage we shot once involving a "covered wagon". You started out sitting on a bench in the wagon, gun on a shelf in front of you and engaged all visible targets before standing and shooting the rest. It was set up so that you couldn't shoot all the targets without substantially changing your position...or so we thought. One forum member, who shall remain nameless, noted that if you were acrobatic enough to jump up onto the bench you could stand on it and shoot all of the targets from about eight feet in the air. He told the RO beforehand what he was going to do so there would be no suprises, it was safe, and it was fast. No one else had thought to shoot it that way. The stage designer didn't intend for it to happen but I had no problem with it. It was actually a lot of fun to see.

Personally, any time I plan to try something "unusual" on a stage, I make it a policy to let the RO know about it as soon as my turn comes up. It's just too risky when playing with loaded weapons to be the 1st bozo to start out sprinting to the right when the 99 shooters before you all went left without giving some advance warning. If the RO questioned my plan, wether for fairness or safety, I would either abandon it or ask for a ruling from the Match Director.

[ErikW]

This is just like that freakin "behind the table" classifier. Where does the range surface end and the side berm begin?

Put down some fault lines.

[Ron Ankeny]

Erik:

Yeah, your solution sure solves the problem. I guess what I get so torqued off about is we shouldn't have to put down a fault line or physical barrier along a berm. Hmmmm....maybe we could call the berm a physical barrier?

[GRW]

I would think that most ranges strictly prohibit anyone walking on berm's, outside of IPSC or USPSA rules.

[billwright]

Hi Guys,

Here in NZ if you went up a side berm and shot you would be in breach of Range Standing Orders and the end result would be a DQ and a heave ho from the club and a prosecution by the police if they heard about it. Each range has to be certified for safety and shooting positions are based on common sense and the thought that someone would run up a berm and expose himself to friendly fire on the next range is a bit hard to to understand, he would also be shooting from an unsafe position from the standpoint of other shooters. To elevate onesself above the level and outside the periferals of the range is unsafe gun handling and i would have no hesitation in awarding a DQ anfd let him argue it out later.

Bill

[Bear1142]

Guys,

Please remember the context of the berm climb. It was only TWO steps. I think we all could agree running up the side of the berm is dangerous, but this was very subtle. If you were standing next to the guy on the berm, you'd be looking at his belt buckle. He didn't take off up the whole side and shoot into the stage like a gunship. Sorry to muddy the waters, but I want the topic and prevailing opinions to be accurate. Thanks.

Erik

[kaiserb]

Another danger would be stepping a couple of steps up onto a 3:1 slope. If your berms are clay, like most of the ones in TX, you are liable to end up on your backside if it is wet.

[Ron Ankeny]

Bear1142:

If I can muster up the guts, I'll take a couple of steps up the side of a berm and rip off a couple of rounds during the live fire portion of the upcoming RO class. I'll get back to you.

[Vince Pinto]

Bear 1142,

We must, and do, draw the line somewhere. Two steps up a berm might not seem like much, but neither is:

1) The 2 degrees between 89 and 91 degrees (breaking 90 degrees);

2) The 20cm between 2.90m and 3.10m (AD into the ground);

3) The 10 seconds between dropping your gun before or after the LAMR command;

but each of these small measurements means the difference between enjoying the rest of a match and being told to hit the showers, and it is my considered opinion that stepping on a side berm is unsportsmanlike and unsafe.

Anyway, there's nothing more I can add. If you don't agree, no hard feelings.

[Bear1142]

Ron,

I would prefer you asked the question as opposed to doing it first

Vince,

I agree with you, but I don't know about the unsportsmanlike conduct. How would you articulate it in an arbitration that the action was "unsafe". What rule did the shooter violate, or what was the unsportsmanlike conduct? My point is, I think it needs a better definition or needs to be added as a procedural penalty. Maybe something like a procedural for a minor infraction and unsportsmanlike if its a major one. Could it be a procedural pen. for gaining an unfair advantage?

Erik