Shooting Bay Boundaries

[Vince Pinto]

It's unsafe because side berms are steeply angled, therefore it's easy to lose your footing. Side berms only have one purpose in life, and that is to catch bullets. They are not a shooting location.

It's unsportsmanlike conduct because the competitor exceeded the "range boundaries" or "range surface" in order to circumvent the props and other vision barriers to get an advantageous shot (i.e. he cheated - See 10.4.1).

[Flexmoney]

Vince...I agree it shuldn't be done. I don't know about DQ'ing a shooter because the berms are "steeply angled, therefore it's easy to lose your footing".

I ahven't dug through the book on this, but there has to be something better than that??? I could say the same thing about shooters wearing cleats on damp ply-wood.

The US 10.4.2 sounds closer to the mark, though it almost seems like it is being used as a "failure to do right" in this situation.

Is there anything in Section 2 that might cover this?

[Vince Pinto]

Flex,

Help me understand. Is this thread telling me there are people who honestly believe:

1) unless specifically stated (and penalised) in the rulebook, side berms are a legitimate and safe shooting location?

2) that climbing up side berms is not blatant cheating?

3) that it's perfectly acceptable to endanger yourself by climbing up side berms, thereby reducing the height of the safety cover provided to you by them?

4) that stepping upon side berms does not jeopardise your footing, thereby promoting unsafe gun handling?

5) that it's perfectly acceptable to endanger everyone else by changing the angles of fire (and increasing the incidence of ricochets) reasonably anticipated by the course designer or builder who expects competitors to remain on the flat range surface while engaging targets?

I'd like to know so that if I write a rule to deal with this issue, I can refer my colleagues and people who are critical of "yet another idiotic, no-brainer rule" to this thread.

Believe me when I tell you that I'm more than willing to double the size of our rulebook to include rules against wearing cleats on plywood and shooting barefoot and shooting while wearing "flip-flops" and carrying your own scaling aids during a COF and every other conceivable possibility, if necessary.

I guess I'm guilty of crediting competitors with more commonsense than they deserve, however I'm beginning to see the error of my ways.

And no, I'm not a happy camper.

[vluc]

Guess I'm one of those snot RO's, I would DQ going up the berm (clearly unsafe)...but then, I am also going to be checking the Beretta shooters triggers as well....

[shred]

I've actually shot a stage wherein the "best" way to shoot it was a step and a half up the side berm (more using it for support-when-leaning than actually standing up on it-- note this was safer than not going onto it and attempting some sort of one-footed Egret stance). There was a pretty well-beaten path to that location by the time we got there, so we asked the RO. "Is it OK for us to go here?", and he said "yes".

What's wrong with that? No rule needed, and if it's otherwise safe, the RO can say "Yes, you can do that" and if it's not, they can say "no, you may not.". Optionally, they can add: "I'll A: DQ you for sticking your head outside the berm or B: ding you a proceedural for violating a fault line." If you choose to do it without asking, you takes your chances.

I'm also thinking of some of the 'arroyo' courses at Rio Salado in which the "berm" becomes the surface you move across on a regular basis. Who says a range has to be flat?

[Vince Pinto]

Shred,

Yes, and I've been to matches where the "RO" told us we will get a match DQ for not being on time for our stage as required by the squadding schedule.

What was the level of the match where the "RO" said it was OK to use the side berm? Would I be correct in guessing it was a local club match and the "RO" was merely the guy who's turn it was to hold the timer (i.e. he wasn't certified as an RO by his home region)?

I don't know how many weeks I spend every year clearing up things told to competitors by an "RO" who has never done an RO course.

There's a big difference between and certified RO and a certifiable "TH" (Timer Holder).

[Singlestack]

I was not on the squad with Bear1142 at this match, but I did go up the berm on the stage he is talking about. There was such a large advantage to be gained that unless there was a fault line or it was written in the course description (or rule book) that you couldn't, I would do it again.

In this instance, there was no safety issue involved. I don't consider it cheating any more than not shooting at a target when the advantages outweigh the penalties.

P.S.

I am a RO.

[Singlestack]

Oh,

One more thing. I guess the "Gamer Gods" got me back. I had a jam while shooting this stage.

[TBF]

Just my .02, gaining advantage by position or movement, target engagement order, etc.

is OK. Obviously safety is paramount and unsafe conduct, even if allowed by rules, should not be allowed.

Missing targets intentionally, thats another matter entirely, but you probably know how I fell about that.

Travis F.

[Ron Ankeny]

Well, I finished the RO class today. The instructor was pretty much of the same opinion as Vince. He told us in the absence of any written procedures, he would simply stop the shooter and inform him/her that the action was inappropriate and would not be tolerated. The shooter would go to the bottom of the pile and reshoot. This was his "kinder, more gentle" RO solution. This would also be made clear to the rest of the squad. Looks pretty simple to me.

Vince:

Becoming and certified RO is really simple. You sit through a class, take a test, and run a shooter as a practical. Being a certified RO doesn't mean a person has the experience or expertise to RO the World Shoot, lol. I too would like to know the "level" of the match. I can't envision an RO letting a shooter go up a berm at an Area or higher match, but who knows?

[Vince Pinto]

Ron,

You're absolutely correct - merely doing an RO course does not make you a great RO, but at least you should garner a better understanding of the rules. It's like anything else: practice makes perfect.

Anyway, I'm glad you took the first step, and I hope you'll try and work some bigger matches. One of the advantages of working big matches, which is not always apparent, is that you get to watch our top competitors in action on your stage. It's very humbling when, after the first 20 squads, you know the best way to shoot your stage, right up until the GMs turn up and mess with your mind.

Believe me when I tell you that I've learned more about shooting from being an RO, watching the top guys perform, than from anything else. When I shoot a match, all I ever see are the (usually great) guys in my squad but, for reasons which continue to escape me, I never seem to be squadded with Eric, Todd, TGO ...........

[shred]

Sorry Vince, you'd be wrong. This was a state level match with supposedly (I say supposedly because I didn't demand proof of current certification) certified RO's.

Y'all must be thinking of wussy side-berms and grassy billiard-table flat ranges. This was in no way unsafe, and no worse than a small hill in the middle of the range. You ban those too?

Pop Quiz:

A: Identify the side berms on this stage.

B: Identify where the competitor may or may not go.

..and no whining about the 3-gun... it's the first example photo I found

Clearly the only answer is on a case-by-case basis.

[Ron Ankeny]

This is getting a bit silly isn't it? The original question had to do with berms, and when we think of a shooting bay we have the shooting surface (floor) and non-shooting surface intended to prevent bullet escapement, the berm. Now all of a sudden we are in the middle of the desert.

Based upon the information given in the original post, Vince gave his opinion and I think we should thank him for taking the time to interact on this board, instead we treat him like a blind Little League umpire, no respect at all. I gave the same information to Jay Worden and he concured with Vince. If you give the same information to John Amidon what do you think he would say? I can hear Amidon now, "Sure haul ass up the side of the berm."

Obviously, the answer is in general, berms are not a part of the shooting surface and you should stay off of the darn things. However, to get a precise ruling, you would have needed to be there and know all of the specifics. Why does it need to be so complicated?

[Vince Pinto]

Shred,

That's a pretty good curve ball, dude. Can you throw a spit ball and a knuckle ball too? It's the bottom of the ninth, the bases are loaded, I'm stepping up to the plate but I've got a stone in my size 12 Nikes ....... ouch!

The photo is obviously a "jungle run" type of stage so, no, there are no side berms. Hence, as my esteemed colleague (and fellow certified RO) Ron has stated, the evidence is inadmissible. Next time, you'll be held in contempt of Court, er, Arbitration Committee.

BTW, I really hope that huge hole in the paper target was made by a shotgun otherwise, damn, that's one helluva pistol.

I'm outta here ........... time for my medication.

[shred]

I'm just pointing out to everybody that jumped into the thread with "No way, DQ their ass", that not all berms and ranges are the same and therefore as rules go, you cannot create a generic "No going up the side berms, no way, no how" rule. (I will note that the sides of the arroyos at Rio Salado do double-duty as bullet-catchers and movement surfaces, so you can't even use the bullet-trap excuse)

Vince had a good answer "No, it's not against the rules, but I'd call Unsportsmanlike Conduct [if they were doing it for the given extreme-gaming scenario]". So, clearly he sees that if it's a reasonable part of the stage and otherwise safe, it could be OK. I have no problem with that.

He did impugn the reputation of a Texas RO though, so we may have to get Dave Skinner to put a larnin' on him.

[Vince Pinto]

Naaah. Uncle Dave would never harm me. Not a snowflake's chance in hell.

Uncle Dave and I have a mutual bond, respect and admiration for each other, which has developed over many years of travelling to the same international matches, gun shows and other events. Our spirit of camaraderie, fellowship and service to IPSC shooters is a common driving force between us, and this ensures that nothing could interfere with or deteriorate the inalienable bond which exists between two such dedicated and mutually respectful "brothers in arms".

We also have photos of each other in compromising positions with farmyard animals