Minor or Major? Pros & Cons - Limited Minor

[kevin c]

Another way to look at it is with BE's own recommendation to shoot for 90% of the available points.

In major PF scoring, that's half A's (5 pts) and half C's (4 pts) for a 1:1 ratio.

In minor PF scoring, that's three quarters A's (5 pts) and one quarter C's (3 pts) for a 3:1 ratio.

So, shooting minor vs others shooting major, you'd have to be much more accurate at the same speed, or hellaciously faster with the same # of A's and C's just to get the same score...

[photog]

Here is my take on the whole thing: look to what the top shooters use and go with that.

If the top shooters are using a single action .40 in Limited, then get that gun as your competition gun. If the top shooters shoot a 9mm in Production, get that gun for yourself if you want to compete in Production. Look, we are playing a game here (in USPSA), and the playing field is actually pretty level. Just use what the top shooters use and you will never be at a disadvantage. Pick your division, THEN pick the gun to play in that division. Don't reinvent the wheel, shoot what is known to work. You'll save buck and time in the long run.

[fiddler]

Here is my take on the whole thing: look to what the top shooters use and go with that.

If the top shooters are using a single action .40 in Limited, then get that gun as your competition gun. If the top shooters shoot a 9mm in Production, get that gun for yourself if you want to compete in Production. Look, we are playing a game here (in USPSA), and the playing field is actually pretty level. Just use what the top shooters use and you will never be at a disadvantage. Pick your division, THEN pick the gun to play in that division. Don't reinvent the wheel, shoot what is known to work. You'll save buck and time in the long run.

So, what do the top shooters use?

[Flexmoney]

Minor sucks.

I shouldn't say that. lol

Everybody in Production division shoots Minor, because the rule says so. Even ground. 9mm friendly. Capacity is limited to 10 in the mags, +1 in the pipe...so other calibers can also be competitive. (you don't lose capacity by shooting 40 or 45)

In Limited or Limited-10 divisions, it takes 40 caliber to make Major power factor (the rules say so).

98% of the shooters shoot Major in the divisions that allow it. It is what wins.

[Nik Habicht]

In Limited or Limited-10 divisions, it takes 40 caliber to make Major power factor (the rules say so).

98% of the shooters shoot Major in the divisions that allow it. It is what wins.

and since caliber affects capacity --- most of those 98% shoot the .40.....

[Micah]

It should not allow you to stop having fun and experimenting at the club level...but I would not expect to win HOA shooting minor in a major divison.

[Nik Habicht]

It should not allow you to stop having fun and experimenting at the club level...but I would not expect to win HOA shooting minor in a major divison.

And you're likely correct if trying to win the match or even your class at a large match. I've had some success in the past shooting a 34 in Limited Division --- in fact at the time shooting minor didn't really affect my standings. The four or five round capacity advantage pretty much made up the difference --- of course I was pretty slow and shooting a very high percentage of alphas at the time. It wasn't unusual for me to go all As on half the stages in the match.....

Now, I think I'd rather shoot major --- but that's only because I've learned how to shoot Charlies and occasionally Deltas quicker....

[EkuJustice]

Minor could be an advantage in Limited if they do a time plus scoring where there is no major or minor 2 hits or 1A to nutralize which we shot at a 3 gun match here. If they use that scoreing for the state match im putting the conversion barrel in my 35 and getting the extra rounds for sure. Other than that major is the way to go

[Micah]

Now, I think I'd rather shoot major --- but that's only because I've learned how to shoot Charlies and occasionally Deltas quicker....

lol Who taught you how to do that?

[Nik Habicht]

Now, I think I'd rather shoot major --- but that's only because I've learned how to shoot Charlies and occasionally Deltas quicker....

lol Who taught you how to do that?

Vlad, Raz-0 and Marques are pushing me at matches; the lack of practice has this strange effect of turning some alphas into charlies, deltas, and occasionally even mikes......

Since I'm obviously not real serious about shooting well right now, it's fun to just play around with different things and see what happens.....

[photog]

Minor could be an advantage in Limited if they do a time plus scoring where there is no major or minor 2 hits or 1A to nutralize which we shot at a 3 gun match here. If they use that scoreing for the state match im putting the conversion barrel in my 35 and getting the extra rounds for sure. Other than that major is the way to go

I guess we were referring to USPSA rules. One of the big things about USPSA matches is you can't change the rules.

Scoring is standardized by the rulebook for USPSA, it makes it so that we can travel to any USPSA match and know what to expect.

To answer the question:

What do the top shooters use?

In Production - double stack 9mm

In Limited/L10 Double stack .40 (min caliber for major)

In Open - Double stack 9mm Major, or 38 Super (SC or TJ) (higher caps with a .355 vs a .400 bullet)

Revolver - .45 acp with full moons (although more are using .40) (Short, easy to load, soft shooting)

Single stack - .45acp (min cal for major is .40, but most think 45 shoots better and no capacity issues)

What no one has said yet is that if you are shooting all A's all the time you are probably going to slow. Hitting 90% of the points is a BIG deal. Notice B. Enos is NOT saying to hit all A's. There is a reason to this. Hitting all As is slower than necessary to win a match in USPSA. His ain't bullseye stuff, its SPEED related, therefore go fast and prosper!

Edited October 17, 2008 by photog

[Flexmoney]

What no one has said yet is that if you are shooting all A's all the time you are probably going to slow. Hitting 90% of the points is a BIG deal. Notice B. Enos is NOT saying to hit all A's. There is a reason to this. Hitting all As is slower than necessary to win a match in USPSA. His ain't bullseye stuff, its SPEED related, therefore go fast and prosper!

[VegasOPM]

Photog,

All I know is that when I shoot with GM's and High M's, their first question at the end of the run is "how many points down", while the "B's" and "A's" ask "what was my time".... that may be an indicator of the importance of getting the points.

[EkuJustice]

For multigun time plue is a USPSA approved scoring per the rule book. That is what I was referring to in the post about minor being a benefit. Our state is considering using that scoring for the state shoot which if they do Im sure there will be alot more 9mm limited guns out there than usual

[Carmoney]

The only division (other than Production, obviously!) where minor is worth considering is Single Stack. And even then shooting major is usually going to be to your advantage. Occasionally there will be a match where several reloads can be saved by shooting a 9mm or .38 Super 1911 with 10+1 capacity, then it's worth thinking about.

As an experiment, I shot minor (10+1) at the Single Stack Classic this year. I did this knowing full well that this match is always designed with 8-rounders in mind, and that I would be at a disadvantage on probably every stage except the all-steel stage. I finished 40th place overall, and was reasonably pleased considering the serious level of high-level competition at that match. Re-calculating the numbers, if I had gotten the same hits shooting major, I would finished 9 or 10 places higher.

[Nik Habicht]

As an experiment, I shot minor (10+1) at the Single Stack Classic this year. I did this knowing full well that this match is always designed with 8-rounders in mind, and that I would be at a disadvantage on probably every stage except the all-steel stage. I finished 40th place overall, and was reasonably pleased considering the serious level of high-level competition at that match. Re-calculating the numbers, if I had gotten the same hits shooting major, I would finished 9 or 10 places higher.

That brings me to a couple of questions --- did you need or use the extra capacity on any stages? And if so, did you take that into account when recalculating the numbers?

[JKSNIPER]

" You can't miss fast enough to win."

Accuracy first...then worry about stepping on the *thumb rest [generic]*.

Just my .02

JK

[Nik Habicht]

" You can't miss fast enough to win."

Accuracy first...then worry about stepping on the *thumb rest [generic]*.

Just my .02

JK

O.K. --- as long as you realize that you can hit slow enough to lose.....

[Carmoney]

That brings me to a couple of questions --- did you need or use the extra capacity on any stages? And if so, did you take that into account when recalculating the numbers?

I think there was only one time where the 10-round capacity saved me a reload at the SSC. Plus I guess it gave me a bit more comfort to go faster on the obligatory all-steel stage. But you gotta realize, the SSC is always geared to be 8-round friendly, always has and always will, and I knew that going in. Take a random sampling of other major matches and there would be more opportunities for the 10+1 to save some reloads and close the gap a little. Most (but not necessarily all) the time the advantage will go to major-8.

[tk2]

I'm wondering if shooting minor in limited is really that much of a disadvantage. Yea, you give up some points, but I would think shooting minor you could shoot faster, more accurately, and get a couple more rounds in your mag if you shoot 9mm.

I was thinking about giving it a try just to see if it makes any difference in my finishes at the local matches. Any opinions on this?

[Larry White]

There have been several of the really big dogs try that over the years, only a few have pulled it off and they didnt stick with it. You may be a little faster, your hits will be about the same and the points down will eat you alive.----------Larry

[jasmap]

I'm wondering if shooting minor in limited is really that much of a disadvantage. Yea, you give up some points, but I would think shooting minor you could shoot faster, more accurately, and get a couple more rounds in your mag if you shoot 9mm.

I was thinking about giving it a try just to see if it makes any difference in my finishes at the local matches. Any opinions on this?

You more than likely can't shoot fast enough to make up the difference in points. And the mag capacity would rarely be noticed in a match. If you have a minor gun go ahead and run it and see how it goes. It's all about having fun anyway.

There are a few guys that are exceptions to this rule but against other great shooters they would normally fall in the standings due to shooting Minor.

[Alwaystryin]

If you shoot As you can do it faster with a 9mm. Its when its outside the A/b when the points down start to hurt.

In my opinion the USPSA needs to realize modern 9mm ammo doesn't give up anything to larger calibers and score them equally.

Or at least let 9 major be scored major in LTD.

I'm wondering if shooting minor in limited is really that much of a disadvantage. Yea, you give up some points, but I would think shooting minor you could shoot faster, more accurately, and get a couple more rounds in your mag if you shoot 9mm.

I was thinking about giving it a try just to see if it makes any difference in my finishes at the local matches. Any opinions on this?

[Dan Hefta]

I shoot Production and for the fun of it I compare hit factors with some of the Lim10 guys that shoot in my class, The extra points that they get for B,C and D hits really kill me. You will have better times but the points will kill you in the end. For the fun of it I shoot Limited with my G34 once in a while, but I am not very competitve doing it.

[bkeeler]

I'm wondering if shooting minor in limited is really that much of a disadvantage. Yea, you give up some points, but I would think shooting minor you could shoot faster, more accurately, and get a couple more rounds in your mag if you shoot 9mm.

I was thinking about giving it a try just to see if it makes any difference in my finishes at the local matches. Any opinions on this?

Being how you usually kick everyone's A#$ anyway give it a try I would like to see the difference.

BK