Religious Shooter Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I think there's too much variation in equipment rules for HM. I wanted to have these polls so (hopefully) the various MD's out there can have an idea on what "we" want in terms of equipment rules. Of course anybody can vote. If you shoot HM… great. But if you don't or don't plan on shooting HM I'd like to make a request... vote as if you are going to shoot HM. Vote as if you are going to spend the money and you are the one that's going to take the time to shoot and prepare for HM. It's awfully easy to say HM pistol should have a 200 PF minimum. That HM shotgun require full-power shotgun slugs out of a pump. Have 8 round limits for pistol, etc… when you aren't going to shoot HM. Pretend that it's your shoulder that's gonna get pummeled. Rules: DPMS: DPMS Tri Gun Challenge (2006) PNW3G: R&R Racing Multigun Challenge 2007 USPSA RM3G: Rocky Mountain 3 Gun 2007 SMM3G: Superstition Mountain 3 Gun 2007 FB: Fort Benning 2007 Thanks. NOTE: The software only allows 3 questions so there are multiple polls on the subject. I've tried to limit the choices to what's currently being done between the different matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I am not about to buy a single stack 1911 just to shoot HM once in a blue moon. I vote for just requiring Major PF, with no caliber/capacity limitations. Matches are won or lost with the rifle and shotgun anyway, so why artificially limit the pool of potential competitors with overly restrictive pistol rules ? Checking the PF for every competitor, whether for pistol, rifle or shotgun, is an administrative PITA. Personally, I'd prefer to trust to the honor system, with chrono on demand if an RO (not another competitor) has probably cause to believe a competitors ammo does not make it (e.g., plates not moving/falling well, unusually low recoil). Regular IPSC chrono sampling rules could apply. Penalty for underpowered ammo could be (i) moved to Open for just missing PF, or (ii) DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct in the case of flagrantly underpowered ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Heavy Metal/He Man was NEVER intended to be a Single Stack division!!! The orriginal class as offered by RM3G/ and proposed by Eddie Rohdes was a .308 rifle, a .45 caliber pistol, and a 12 Gage shotgun! Thats it!! Somehow it morphed into a pump class, and then suddenly a S.S. class pistol. From a match director view, WHY did we go S.S. on a 40 round course of fire we are forcing 4-5 reloads at about 2.5 seconds per reload, so we are EXTENDING the time it takes a Heavy Metal shooter to run a given course of fire by 15-18 second per shooter, and that is in the upper end shooters that don't miss much. At CMMG it was down right painfull to watch some of the 8 round limited shooters try to struggle through a high round count stage, to the tune of 3-5 minutes a stage. This causes EVERYONE to run LATE. there are many CHEAP 10 round mags for S.S. guns, any high cap gun can be down loaded to 10 and all is good. How is shooting a steel framed S.S. gun more "He-Manly" than a LIGHTER weight Glock in .45? this rule is redicules and WAS NEVER the intent of He-Man! Seldom do I agree with Gordon, but on the matter of He-Man/HeavyMetal he has it right on the money. Lets get this mess straightened out! KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmut Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I hear ya kurt........it has become so bastardized between all the matches, that i don't even want to shoot it anymore. i have to have a metal frame single stack and my edge for pistol..... I have to have a pump and a semi for shotgun.... i have to have 2 different sets of mags and irons or scope for my rifle..... this is just be compete in all the matches that have heavy/heman. I am going to sit out he-she/man. Just sit back and watch it transform into a morphidite! PS....Mell don't get excited on us now...haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I think it ought to be as started, 12ga. anything, only 9 rds, 45acp with 10 rds, & 308 w/ iron sights. KISS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Heavy Metal/He Man was NEVER intended to be a Single Stack division!!! The orriginal class as offered by RM3G/ and proposed by Eddie Rohdes was a .308 rifle, a .45 caliber pistol, and a 12 Gage shotgun! Thats it!! Somehow it morphed into a pump class, and then suddenly a S.S. class pistol.From a match director view, WHY did we go S.S. on a 40 round course of fire we are forcing 4-5 reloads at about 2.5 seconds per reload, so we are EXTENDING the time it takes a Heavy Metal shooter to run a given course of fire by 15-18 second per shooter, and that is in the upper end shooters that don't miss much. At CMMG it was down right painfull to watch some of the 8 round limited shooters try to struggle through a high round count stage, to the tune of 3-5 minutes a stage. This causes EVERYONE to run LATE. there are many CHEAP 10 round mags for S.S. guns, any high cap gun can be down loaded to 10 and all is good. How is shooting a steel framed S.S. gun more "He-Manly" than a LIGHTER weight Glock in .45? this rule is redicules and WAS NEVER the intent of He-Man! No offense to Eddie but I don't remember electing him dictator for life in decision making in heavy metal/he-man division. I, for one, could care less that the pistol is steel framed or tupperware. I'll be shooting a single stack but if you have a Glock .45 or XD .45 bring it on. I agree with power factors and mag limitations be it 8 +1 or 10 + 1. (I prefer 8 + 1 simply because it's more fun but whatever). Otherwise what is the point to this division at all? But it should be a .45 ACP (or maybe a .44 revo). No friggin .40s a la SMM3G. No GAPs. No 10mms. I'm fine with power factors as long as they're ENFORCED!!! But violators should not be sent to open, they should be sent to Limited where they're equipment is still legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavy Metal Only Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 All right, Kaptain Komplainor is here. I agree with all the posts so far. I think it should be the same across the board. Note if KM didn't hook me up with a single stack I wouldn't be able to beat all the new shooters in Arkansas. HA HA HA . Who cares if I use my XD.45 ( that I have shot since I started) now I have to get the feel of a different pistol Because it holds only 8 rounds. That's pretty stupid. It's a plot to keep the average shooter (me) down I should take this as training. What other class changes up this much? Just let me know so I can buy something new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 No Kelly, I don't recall Eddie ever running for anything, nor would he consider himself the end all guru of the He Man/Heavy Metal division. No one voted and as I seem to recall no one cared untill The original crew of Rocky Mountain 3-Gun decided to offer the division. ORIGINAL RULES: ANY .45/or .44 MAGNUM revolver, an iron sighted rifle in AT LEAST .308 winchester, and a 12 gage shotgun with a 22" barrel and extention that can't be more than 1" longer than the barrel. The only stipulation was the auto pistol could hold only 10 rounds in the magazine. As an infant, this division offered a venue for those who only had a RIFLE ( not a teeny little carbine/AR) and a single stack pistol and to be able to compete on an even level with like gear, As a TEENAGER this division has become so hard to handle that I don't even claim to know it any longer..,...I can't wait to see what it grow into, but it sure WON'T be He-Man any longer! Kurt (one of the original 4 founders of Rocky Mountain 3-Gun) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Kurt don't you agree that the divisions should be distinct - that there should be REAL differences in equipment between divisions? - Kelly (winner of Heavy Metal/ He Man at Ft. Benning and Rocky Mountain 3 gun and 2nd place at SMM3G and North American Tactical). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 YES, I agree my legal amigo!! First off IRON SIGHTED RIFLES seem to really define a division! Not many folks know how or can shoot IRON WELL!! (BIG DISTINCTION). Second of all it is MAJOR RIFLE!! even with wimp loads the darn thing bucks around like a green broke mule (once again DISTINCTION!) Third, almost all folks have a .45 of some sort, and combiined with a MAJOR rifle that DEFINES the "division" Now I am going to get a bit abrasive as I have been at the "jug" tonight To define a division by equipment is just fine, but in 3-gun it can be just ONE minor change! Let,s take Iron Sight for example. There are not many people that can shoot IRON well....isn't that a distinction? Or are we to asume that EVERYONE can shoot IRON, if they chose, to the same level of competence?" My experience sayes NO!! Can everyone handle a light .45..NO! The division has been defined by the skill level of the people competeing in it! JUST like C and B shooters in ANY division, for example. Let,s take "tactical" Yes there are not many differences between a tacical rifle and an open rifle, but there is a BIG difference between and "open shotgun, and a open pistol" compaired to Tactical shotguns and pistols, once again the class has been defined, by a big margin!!! as has IRON SIGHT!!! KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 I love it when you are abrasive! And when you've been at the jug! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidwiz Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 Should be: Major PF Rifle, Major PF Shotgun, Major PF Handgun - don't require people to buy more equipment (like a SS .45 pistol or a pump-action 12ga shotgun). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim3gun Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 who cares about power factors in 3 gun, thats a USPSA thing. if your ammo cant knock over the steel thats your bad for downloading the powder charge. be alittle smarter next match. All a power factor does is to make you get your powder/bullet mix just to that fine line to barely make major. its not really full house factory standards. I look at it kinda like classifiers or a classification system. Worthless and encourages sandbaggers. but thats another topic.....Crap....now I pissed myself off, now I got to go and arrest someone. I'll have to tell the poor fool.. "your going to jail tonight because of the forums!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Payne Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 tim3gun I find the "beat and release" program to be a very therapeudic remedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmut Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 who cares about power factors in 3 gun, thats a USPSA thing. if your ammo cant knock over the steel thats your bad for downloading the powder charge. be alittle smarter next match. All a power factor does is to make you get your powder/bullet mix just to that fine line to barely make major. its not really full house factory standards. I look at it kinda like classifiers or a classification system. Worthless and encourages sandbaggers. but thats another topic.....Crap....now I pissed myself off, now I got to go and arrest someone. I'll have to tell the poor fool.. "your going to jail tonight because of the forums!" "Officer, may I suggest using your knight stick"........Eddie Murphy in Trading Places But they should include a knight stick in heman....LOL Garret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Payne Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 I still like the Tomahawk idea. "release the inner savage" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 who cares about power factors in 3 gun, thats a USPSA thing. if your ammo cant knock over the steel thats your bad for downloading the powder charge. be alittle smarter next match. All a power factor does is to make you get your powder/bullet mix just to that fine line to barely make major. its not really full house factory standards. I look at it kinda like classifiers or a classification system. Worthless and encourages sandbaggers. but thats another topic.....Crap....now I pissed myself off, now I got to go and arrest someone. I'll have to tell the poor fool.. "your going to jail tonight because of the forums!" "Officer, may I suggest using your knight stick"........Eddie Murphy in Trading Places But they should include a knight stick in heman....LOL Garret What in the wide, wide world of sports is a "knight stick" and why would anyone besides a knight need to use one? If you aren't recognizing power factors (and enforcing them) you may as well do away with HM as a category and let those so inclined compete heads up in limited. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 This is a "knight" stick These are "night" sticks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted August 19, 2007 Share Posted August 19, 2007 I agree with most of the posts also but would like to add that He man (heavy metal) just by virtue of its name is a field that the firearms used should be more challenging to employ (Difficult) than in other divisions. And with all three firearms. Rifle of .308, Iron sighted and 20 rds max loaded (who cares if it can hold more), Pump shotgun of 12g with a max capacity of 9, Any .45 pistol with 8+1 or 10+1. I believe these are distinct enough differences. I for one do not care much for pump shotguns, Autos are much more fun to me, but a pump is more difficult and challenging. I really like pistols that hold 23rds as I find mag changes a time waister. And dang does a .308 kick compared to my tricked out .223. So this posses the question to myself, why do I like He-Man/Heavy Metal so much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 Bump. In light of the new USPSA rules on HM... Please vote if you haven't already. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now