The Endless Prize Table Thread

[Jake Di Vita]

I don't so much have a huge problem with the class system as I do with how it's rewarded.

As a disclaimer...I thought all of this when I was a middle of the pack B shooter as well.

Eliminate the prize table and make it cash reward only. There should not be 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place in every class....everyone can't win. Do 1st, 2nd, and 3rd overall, and each class winner except GM. If you are a GM you can only win by winning the match. Reward class winners with progressively higher rewards for each higher class. This way, the people who put more effort in get more out of it...which is how every sport should be. Once someone wins their class in a level III they are automatically bumped up to the next higher class. This way you have 8 paid placements for each division....much better than the 19 there already is.

1st place - 30%

2nd place - 25%

3rd place - 15%

High M - 10%

High A - 8%

High B - 6%

High C - 4%

High D - 2%

Percentage is of whatever prize pool there is per division. If by chance there is no one shooting one class in a division....that classes's percentage is distributed evenly amongst the others.

I'm sure there will be people thinking that this isn't fair to them....fortunately....there is always dry fire.

This type of reward system will eliminate sand bagging and encourage a higher performance level of shooting across the board.

[Ben Stoeger]

Eliminate the prize table and make it cash reward only. There should not be 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place in every class....everyone can't win. Do 1st, 2nd, and 3rd overall, and each class winner except GM.

I don't think that anyone should get a cash or prize based on a class placement.. anytime.. anywhere.

Classes and catagories and such can and should be recognized, but nobody should ever get anything but a trophy for how they do in their respective catagory or class.

The prizes should go top down in the division. If you don't like that.. award them randomly by raffle or something.

I just cant see giving the guy that places 3rd in his division jack shit while you give the guy that places 60th money. I don't know how people ever came to think that this was in any way fair or a good idea.

[BrianATL]

Most people think that sponsorships are readily available whenever you hit the Master or Grandmaster level. Let me assure you that it is anything but the case. Most shooters who are sponsored are only semi sponsored with equipment....usually their practice, travel, and match fees are all out of their own pocket. To be honest, the shooters that have sponsorships that help with their actual shooting throughout the season can probably be counted on 2 hands. There is no guaranteed "benefit" from being at the top level.

Of these 299 GM cards and 1226 M cards...how many do you think were sponsored when they were A or B class. Bottom line is, if you want to get good...you make the time for it. I dry fired 4 hours a night from midnight to 4 AM after 12 hours of work and waking up at 7 AM seven days a week for 8 months. I was 20 years old, had no money (still don't as a matter of fact) had to scrape ammo together for matches much less live fire practice.

To me...the people who are willing to sacrifice that much to become a proficient shooter has more than earned whatever meager dollars can be won at a USPSA match.

EVERY other sport I can think of only rewards the top....because they are rewarding performance...not mediocrity.

Here's the difference between USPSA and every other major sport in the country. Most shooters (the ones that believe everyone needs a pat on the back for being 3rd D at 34%) expect the rewards of a sport while they treat it as a hobby.

You want a good trip to the prize table, or a little extra cash to pay back what you spent to shoot the match? Earn it.

First of all USPSA is not a major sport, and doesn't have the major sponsors to underwrite the prizes. As soon as I can watch matches on ESPN your system will work, top dogs get the top prize. But for now the prizes are basically financed by the entrants in the match. Golf tournaments are a pretty close anology, no classes in the PGA, but you try to put on a golf tournament at your local club with no handicaps involved and you have got a tough sell job on your hands. Not to many guys willing to put up a big entrance fee when they are an 18 handicap, and there is a dozen scratch or better golfers in the field.

[Jake Di Vita]

90% of the people don't shoot for prizes anyway. All the appeal to the masses is already there...that's why they shoot now.

These changes will change very little about the sport, and nothing about how it is shot which is why the vast majority of shooters compete.

[ima45dv8]

I'm sure it won't be a popular idea, but I'd like to see prize tables done away with all together, except for match staff. Take the prizes donated and give them to the RO's, stats crews, etc., without whom there would be no match, and everyone else vie for a trophy/plaque.

I say this as one has is working far fewer matches than I have in the past, but who still appreciates those individuals creating venues for me to enjoy.

[Ben Stoeger]

I'm sure it won't be a popular idea, but I'd like to see prize tables done away with all together, except for match staff. Take the prizes donated and give them to the RO's, stats crews, etc., without whom there would be no match, and everyone else vie for a trophy/plaque.

I would sign off on that in a heartbeat.

[BrianATL]

I'm sure it won't be a popular idea, but I'd like to see prize tables done away with all together, except for match staff. Take the prizes donated and give them to the RO's, stats crews, etc., without whom there would be no match, and everyone else vie for a trophy/plaque.

I say this as one has is working far fewer matches than I have in the past, but who still appreciates those individuals creating venues for me to enjoy.

I am with you on that one !

[JThompson]

I'm sure it won't be a popular idea, but I'd like to see prize tables done away with all together, except for match staff. Take the prizes donated and give them to the RO's, stats crews, etc., without whom there would be no match, and everyone else vie for a trophy/plaque.

I say this as one has is working far fewer matches than I have in the past, but who still appreciates those individuals creating venues for me to enjoy.

That works for me.

[glock_40_caliber]

I'm sure it won't be a popular idea, but I'd like to see prize tables done away with all together, except for match staff. Take the prizes donated and give them to the RO's, stats crews, etc., without whom there would be no match, and everyone else vie for a trophy/plaque.

I would sign off on that in a heartbeat.

Looks like we may actually agree on something. Match staff should definately be a priority for the donated "toys"

[sfinney]

Which brings up another related issue..... lots of the "donated toys" are actually bought with match funds...... in many majors, very little is actually given to the match, except for the minimum needed to get you vendor table or sponsor banner on a stage....... which when its all said and done usually isn't alot, in volume. Directors have to go back and make deals to buy much more stuff, just to "pad" the prize table. With a few exceptions like Glock, STI, and other pistol manufacturers that donate pistols, frames, etc. I'd wager at least half the parts and trinkets on a prize table (or more) is bought.

So if thats the case, why not just charge lower entry fees rather than making the prize table bigger? Any donated larger prizes can be raffled off to the match workers for their help, and the rest of us should just be happy with the chance at a trophy and maybe a tube of grease or box of .380 ACP lead bullets.

The reason is that most people in general are greedy - they want to go to the matches where they can get cool stuff (even if it costs more). And as long as ONE major match out there continues to have lucrative, large prize tables, the pressure is on for the rest of the matches to follow suit or risk losing entries. Or at least thats how the logic goes.

I'd argue that if the entry was $75 instead of $150, you'd still fill the match up, even without prizes. Spend the money on rooms and food for the R.O.s and staff, raffle off the guns to them, and let the rest of us just get to the shooting.

[Jake Di Vita]

I've been to 5 nationals and easily 50 majors in the last 5 years. If someone gets a discount on a gun that really doesn't mean anything...since they already had a gun if they were shooting that division to begin with.

I just don't understand why so many people are against the idea that to win something....you need to win.

[Brazos Custom]

I'd wager at least half the parts and trinkets on a prize table (or more) is bought.

You would lose that bet by a longshot. Only about a third of the matches that we sponsored last year bought anything from us and the ones that did made relatively small purchases. Match fees do not have anything to do with money spent on prize tables - that is a myth. On average 90-95% of the prizes are donated in return for vendor space or so called advertising in the match book, etc.

[Mike P]

I'm sure it won't be a popular idea, but I'd like to see prize tables done away with all together, except for match staff. Take the prizes donated and give them to the RO's, stats crews, etc., without whom there would be no match, and everyone else vie for a trophy/plaque.

I say this as one has is working far fewer matches than I have in the past, but who still appreciates those individuals creating venues for me to enjoy.

I would certainly not be in favor of this type prize distribution. To have a separate table for ROs is fine, even drawing for one of the better prizes from the RO pool is good, but in my opinion, prize distribution should be separate tables based on the percentage of participants in each division, and awarded by order of finish, period. Trophies, cerificates of merit, etc. for class winners if someone wants to fool with it, but prizes by order of finish within the division.

I would also not be in favor of doing away with prizes for a cheaper match fee. In fact, I'd be more inclined to forego participation in such a match. Having something to play for, or something to win or lose based upon your performance or the performance of your peers makes the contest more interesting I think.

Mike

[Kingman]

Bob, thank you for clearing that up. I was also one of the people that well thought prize table stuff was bought by the match.

I like to think that at times you can get items as prizes. I do like Jake's payout system. It has merits. I also don't mind STI's contingency program as an added bonus at some matches.

[sfinney]

I'd wager at least half the parts and trinkets on a prize table (or more) is bought.

You would lose that bet by a longshot. Only about a third of the matches that we sponsored last year bought anything from us and the ones that did made relatively small purchases. Match fees do not have anything to do with money spent on prize tables - that is a myth. On average 90-95% of the prizes are donated in return for vendor space or so called advertising in the match book, etc.

Ok, so I lose the bet. I can't speak for all vendors, and all matches, but from first hand experience SOME matches buy a large amount of the prizes that are on the table. The one in particular I'm most familiar with was not sponsored by Brazos. Sorry to lump everyone in the same pile.

[glock_40_caliber]

I've been to 5 nationals and easily 50 majors in the last 5 years. If someone gets a discount on a gun that really doesn't mean anything...since they already had a gun if they were shooting that division to begin with.

I just don't understand why so many people are against the idea that to win something....you need to win.

I have no problem with having to win, in order to WIN. It just seems that the folks that are whining about matches that have payouts for wins, are complaining because they don't get enough for the division win with the payout for the class winners.

I know you didn't start at the top, so how many class wins did you get on the way there, and out of those, how many trips to the prize table/checks did you get out of it? Or didn't you go to any majors that had prize tables/payouts until you got your GM card?

Again, if you don't like the way prizes or whatever are distributed at a match, run your own the way you want it ran, and see what happens.

[hopalong]

I'll toss in a little info on this pile of bones to chew on.

I was MD for the MS state 3-gun match and here is what we did with our $$$$

Entry fees went to repay match costs (equipment, RO lodging, drinks ect) about 20% of total costs.

Of the 80% left, 50% went to prize distribution (cash payback) and the other went to the RED CROSS (Benefit match)

Sponsors were asked for prizes to be used as a RANDOM prize table for all shooters including staff, and the staff got their own few goodies because I wanted to really thank them for their hard work.

Sponsors KNEW this before hand and I still had 8-9 grand worth or prizes to distribute (thanks again to those who helped)

Now to answer Sharyns ????

I have shot 5 Nationals (1 Ltd-10, 3 Revo, and 1 Limited) and can only guess how many MAJORS I have shot........60 would come close.

Prize tables:

If you ask me, do away with the Prize table by anything but RANDOM and go ahead and Pay back some of the entry fees I like Jakes idea but let me add this thought............why not pay the HOA to all divisions the same thing? All work just as hard to win their division, just because some are not as popular as others doesn't mean the guy/gal on top doesn't deserve the same thing.

Now off that soap box and back on the thread.

I am classified in all divisions except SS but am automaticly an M since I am classed an M in Ltd, all others I am classed A because of the M in LTD.

I cannot shoot a Master percentage at a Major with any of the top dog Limited guys there......the best I've done is 80% (A class) but I can shoot A class percentages in Limited, Limted-10, Revo, and likely Single Stack, and I don't shoot Production stuff except once in a blue moon.

I hold an "A" percentage in Revolver and Limited -10 but Open and Production are way off that.

Some say I should be an M in Revolver and maybe they are right, I can't shoot consistant M class classifiers but I do well at matches. (last year for instance.......A-8 HOA, MS HOA, ARK, HOA, KY 2nd OA, Nats 10th with a 76% of Jerry (A class see what I mean?)

I think as a whole the system is OK, but since at major matches it is division orientated, classes should be not a factor or could just go away and everyone shoot heads up in their respective divisions .

The sandbaggers and Grandbaggers know who they are, as do the rest of us. They have to live with that and look themselves in the mirror in the mornings besides the system eventually catches up with them.

Hopalong

[Jake Di Vita]

I got maybe 5 or 6 class wins...but then again....I was never trying to win my class, I was trying to win my division even as a C and B shooter. I got maybe 1 check and no trips to the prize table in my class victories....and I was perfectly ok with that because I personally saw anything but 1st overall as a loss.

1st C should not get as much as 1st A. There is a distinct difference in skill and performance. The people who are "whining" about that are perfectly righteous. Why should someone that won their division have to split whatever prize they could have with someone who didn't even win their class?

The difficulty of the award should govern the amount of the reward.

Sam,

The reason I said to pay amounts to division winners based on entry fees from the division is to keep it fair. Granted it doesn't work everytime, because even though Revolver is the smallest division, anyone who beats Miculek with a wheelgun has accomplished a pretty amazing feat. But at a good amount of matches, some divisions simply don't have the competition that others do...hence a mediocre performance could yield a victory, which is exactly what I'm trying to get away from.

[JThompson]

I'd wager at least half the parts and trinkets on a prize table (or more) is bought.

You would lose that bet by a longshot. Only about a third of the matches that we sponsored last year bought anything from us and the ones that did made relatively small purchases. Match fees do not have anything to do with money spent on prize tables - that is a myth. On average 90-95% of the prizes are donated in return for vendor space or so called advertising in the match book, etc.

We thank you for your support too Bob. Not that I have been to the prize table, but still.

[JThompson]

I got maybe 5 or 6 class wins...but then again....I was never trying to win my class, I was trying to win my division even as a C and B shooter. I got maybe 1 check and no trips to the prize table in my class victories....and I was perfectly ok with that because I personally saw anything but 1st overall as a loss.

1st C should not get as much as 1st A. There is a distinct difference in skill and performance. The people who are "whining" about that are perfectly righteous. Why should someone that won their division have to split whatever prize they could have with someone who didn't even win their class?

The difficulty of the award should govern the amount of the reward.

Sam,

The reason I said to pay amounts to division winners based on entry fees from the division is to keep it fair. Granted it doesn't work everytime, because even though Revolver is the smallest division, anyone who beats Miculek with a wheelgun has accomplished a pretty amazing feat. But at a good amount of matches, some divisions simply don't have the competition that others do...hence a mediocre performance could yield a victory, which is exactly what I'm trying to get away from.

Jake don't forget about the Senior and Super Senior guys.... mos to f which will not make the prize table anymore, but where would the sport be without all the older guys anf girls? Almost a 1/3rd of the Il Sectional was S and SS. There would be a lot less money if they decided to pull the plug cause they never have a chance of winning anything... it's not due to lack of practice, it's just people slow down. Some people aren't as gifted as you are no matter how much they practice. I do think they top dog prizes/ purse should be higher, but I think the people who support the most should get their share too. There are only a handful, maybe two, people who can win a major. If all the rest of us stayed home, how long do you think it would last?

Jim

[BrianATL]

I got maybe 5 or 6 class wins...but then again....I was never trying to win my class, I was trying to win my division even as a C and B shooter. I got maybe 1 check and no trips to the prize table in my class victories....and I was perfectly ok with that because I personally saw anything but 1st overall as a loss.

1st C should not get as much as 1st A. There is a distinct difference in skill and performance. The people who are "whining" about that are perfectly righteous. Why should someone that won their division have to split whatever prize they could have with someone who didn't even win their class?

The difficulty of the award should govern the amount of the reward.

Sam,

The reason I said to pay amounts to division winners based on entry fees from the division is to keep it fair. Granted it doesn't work everytime, because even though Revolver is the smallest division, anyone who beats Miculek with a wheelgun has accomplished a pretty amazing feat. But at a good amount of matches, some divisions simply don't have the competition that others do...hence a mediocre performance could yield a victory, which is exactly what I'm trying to get away from.

Well why not extend your division logic (pay amounts based on entry fees) just a bit further to classes, all of a sudden winning C class gets interesting. While the 10 GM-M shooters can battle it out for there money. If you really want to be equitable.

[shred]

"What kind of prize tables should we have?" -- Perpetual thread #3 on the BE forums, right after "Og want know what rock use"

Bob's right-- eliminating the prize table really doesn't do much to the match fee-- the idea that a $150 prize match entry fee becomes a $75 trophy-only entry fee doesn't hold water, unless you're talking cash-payback matches, and there is a reason there are few of them, especially given how easy it is to manage compare to sourcing prizes.

I've heard from major sponsors (not Bob), that some sponsors will only sponsor matches with random drawings, while others will never sponsor matches with random drawings. Different strokes for different folks. That's the way it is.

The area matches have a wide variety of prize policies and they all seem to do about as well one way or the other-- reputation of the match and it's quality is far more important for drawing shooters.

Prize tables should be about shooters getting product to use and try out, not sell the next morning on the internet. I've often passed up higher value prizes for something I actually wanted.

[sfinney]

Shred's right, this topic of prize tables is a dead horse, everyone will not agree on the proper way to do it, ever.

Lets get back to the original topic of classification not matching actual skill levels...... or just close this one as having run its course.

[Jake Di Vita]

Brian,

Because for two reasons. One - there is finite amount. And Two - Because the awards should be higher as you become better....like in EVERY other competition.

I said it before, but I'll say it again for effect.

Most USPSA shooters want the rewards of a sport while treating it like a hobby. You want to win something....Earn it.

[BrianATL]

Brian,

Because for two reasons. One - there is finite amount. And Two - Because the awards should be higher as you become better....like in EVERY other competition.

I said it before, but I'll say it again for effect.

Most USPSA shooters want the rewards of a sport while treating it like a hobby. You want to win something....Earn it.

Finite amount of what?

I believe I understand your "effect" you want the big prize. Where as I want the match to appeal to all level of competitors, so as to grow this "hobby" maybe into a sport. We need all the shooters we can muster to make this sport grow not just master level and above shooters.

Believe it or not I do recognize the fact that overall winner shot a better match than the winner of "B" class, but the members of B class have just as much value to the match.

When I shoot a match I earn every point I shoot no more no less, I don't need a door prize.