R.O.ing

[Heavy Metal Only]

I was helping R.O. a stage with steel yesterday and a shooter shot a steel plate that was on a pedestool, It turned sideways, but didn't fall. We chose to score the shot as a miss. Well we had a GM on the squad and he said we should score it a hit. Several of us had just taken an R.O. class tought by Troy Macmanus (who rocks) we all remember him saying it has to fall to score a hit. The GM said the lip on the stand should have been on the backside instead of the front. It was a club match that was pretty much a pratice match and we were the last squad to shoot that stage so there was no point in changing it now. How should we have scored that situation?????????

[toowide]

if the steel was improperly set, it is range failure and stage should be reshot.

[Kingman]

It depends, were you setting it in the same location for everyone. Now yes they fall easier when set to the back of the stand, that just makes sense. But I have seen them turn many of times, and it is always a miss.

Any steel match will say it has to go down.

[davidball]

US4.3.1.6

Unlike IPSC Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration

or calibration challenges. If a metal target has been

hit but fails to fall or overturn, the Range Officer shall

declare range equipment failure and order the competitor

to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been

rectified.

[JThompson]

4.3.1.5

Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to

score. Scoring metal targets which accidentally turn edgeon

or sideways or which a Range Officer deems have fallen

or overturned due to a shot on the apparatus supporting

them or for any other accidental reason, will be treated as

range equipment failure (see Rule 4.6.1).

I read it as a reshoot.

Edited August 5, 2007 by JThompson

[open17]

US4.3.1.6

Also US4.3.1.5 ----"Metal targets that accidentally turn edge-on or sideways"---REF

The block on the base to keep a plate from turning sideways goes

in FRONT of the plate. Appendix C3

Bill

[mactiger]

It's definitely a reshoot. While it's true that a steel plate has to fall to score, if it's hit and doesn't fall, it's always a reshoot.

Troy

[shred]

FWIW, long ago, plates that were hit and turned past 45 degrees or so counted as a hit. I forget when that rule went away.

[JThompson]

FWIW, long ago, plates that were hit and turned past 45 degrees or so counted as a hit. I forget when that rule went away.

That seems like a good way to resolve it to me... obviously it was hit. It would save time, and with the prices of ammo these days $$$.

[HoMiE]

For the sake of time and ammo at a local match would you just give the hit to the shooter or is it always supposed to be a reshoot?

Edited August 6, 2007 by HoMiE

[JThompson]

For the sake of time and ammo at a local match would you just give the hit to the shooter or is it always supposed to be a reshoot?

If you follow the rules, it should be a reshoot. If it's a club practice match I would have scored it a hit or given him the option of a reshoot. If it was a Sunday match that is turned in to USPSA I would have ordered a reshoot to be consistent with the rules.

Any time I ask a shooter to sign a score-sheet, I want it to be as right as I can make it via the current USPSA rules. We have "in house" practice matches once a week, and the results are posted at the club. Those results are not given to USPSA, so we tend to run it as we see fit. The safety rules are always observed, but as to scoring and minor points we tend to use a more common sense approach. Besides, we all want to have some fun and get home in a timely fashion... following the letter of the rule, is sometimes, at odds with goal one. This is esp true for those of us who come in a bit early to set up the COF and who stay to tear down afterward. We tend to move it along pretty good, so we can get tore down and make it home before 10pm.

Edited August 6, 2007 by JThompson

[Heavy Metal Only]

I agree with you guys we ended up scoring the shot a hit as we were all buddies, but the point was IF IT DON'T FALL ,IT DON'T COUNT. thanks for all the input, its good to know that most of us felt like we knew what we were talkin' about. We try not to be range nazis, thank god it wasn't a big match or we would have had to drag in the Range Master.

[LPatterson]

Some day those same shooters & RO's are going to a match that applies the rules properly & they are going to argue their position based on how it is done at their home club. This tends to invite ridicule about a club based on a same portion of the membership.

RO's need to learn the rules to properly provide their shooters with the proper information. Shooters need to know the rules to help keep the RO's from making bad calls.

When the new rule book comes out treat it like a book you have never seen before and read every word. It only takes a word or punctuation in a different part of the sentence to change the meaning of the rule.

[Jim Norman]

Further info. IF a plate falls due to a hit on the support as opposed to the plate, it is REF and a mandatory Reshoot.

The rules are really quite clear on this. Plates must fall to score, hits on plates that don't cause them to fall are REF, hots on the support are REF.

Interestingly enough, there is one "Plate" that is sort of out of the norm, It is the "Kansas City Flopper" at least that is what I have heard it called, two paper with a plate on an arm that causes one paper to fall and the other to rise. Often two shoots so that the falling one is a dissapearing target, hit the plate, hit the visible target and the second one should be appearing.

The "Plate" is not a freestanding plate. it doesn't actually fall. It can't be calibrated as plates aren't calibrated, but it can on occasion take a center hit from a minor round and not fall. I suppose REF is the only acceptable answer, but maybe we need to have a "Special Case" rule for certain types or target system that on approval are treated in a different manner than the general rules would have us do.

Jim

[JThompson]

Some day those same shooters & RO's are going to a match that applies the rules properly & they are going to argue their position based on how it is done at their home club. This tends to invite ridicule about a club based on a same portion of the membership.

RO's need to learn the rules to properly provide their shooters with the proper information. Shooters need to know the rules to help keep the RO's from making bad calls.

When the new rule book comes out treat it like a book you have never seen before and read every word. It only takes a word or punctuation in a different part of the sentence to change the meaning of the rule.

I'm not sure where you come up with this? As I said, we always follow the rules for regular matches, both ROs and shooters alike. We have practice matches that are just that, practice. Everyone knows what the rules are, or are made aware of the rules, but sometimes we choose not to shoot another 25 rds to save money and/or time. This is not to say that when turning in a score to USPSA that the rules aren't followed to the letter. We all work regular jobs and dash in on Thursdays' to setup three stages and shoot them tear down and go home. If we get a prop that doesn't work right we may not take the time to fix it as everyone knows this is just for shits and giggles.

[Flexmoney]

For the sake of time and ammo at a local match would you just give the hit to the shooter or is it always supposed to be a reshoot?

Always a reshoot...no matter what level the match.

[JThompson]

For the sake of time and ammo at a local match would you just give the hit to the shooter or is it always supposed to be a reshoot?

Always a reshoot...no matter what level the match.

I agree, but not always for practice ones. If it goes to USPSA it would be reshot. If it stays at the club maybe, maybe not. That's all I'm saying.

[wide45]

Further info. IF a plate falls due to a hit on the support as opposed to the plate, it is REF and a mandatory Reshoot.

The rules are really quite clear on this. Plates must fall to score, hits on plates that don't cause them to fall are REF, hots on the support are REF.

Interestingly enough, there is one "Plate" that is sort of out of the norm, It is the "Kansas City Flopper" at least that is what I have heard it called, two paper with a plate on an arm that causes one paper to fall and the other to rise. Often two shoots so that the falling one is a dissapearing target, hit the plate, hit the visible target and the second one should be appearing.

The "Plate" is not a freestanding plate. it doesn't actually fall. It can't be calibrated as plates aren't calibrated, but it can on occasion take a center hit from a minor round and not fall. I suppose REF is the only acceptable answer, but maybe we need to have a "Special Case" rule for certain types or target system that on approval are treated in a different manner than the general rules would have us do.

Jim

No special rules!

If your special targets are not reliable, they are not acceptable for use in a match.

[LPatterson]

Some day those same shooters & RO's are going to a match that applies the rules properly & they are going to argue their position based on how it is done at their home club. This tends to invite ridicule about a club based on a same portion of the membership.

RO's need to learn the rules to properly provide their shooters with the proper information. Shooters need to know the rules to help keep the RO's from making bad calls.

When the new rule book comes out treat it like a book you have never seen before and read every word. It only takes a word or punctuation in a different part of the sentence to change the meaning of the rule.

I'm not sure where you come up with this? As I said, we always follow the rules for regular matches, both ROs and shooters alike. We have practice matches that are just that, practice. Everyone knows what the rules are, or are made aware of the rules, but sometimes we choose not to shoot another 25 rds to save money and/or time. This is not to say that when turning in a score to USPSA that the rules aren't followed to the letter. We all work regular jobs and dash in on Thursdays' to setup three stages and shoot them tear down and go home. If we get a prop that doesn't work right we may not take the time to fix it as everyone knows this is just for shits and giggles.

I guess I come up with this from the fact that there is not difference between a practice parachute jump and one that is the real thing because what you practice is what you will do when the sh#t hits the fan. Why not set up one stage and shot it three times or more times as set up three stages to shoot once or twice. Perfect practice makes perfect, half ass practice is just that.

[Jim Norman]

Further info. IF a plate falls due to a hit on the support as opposed to the plate, it is REF and a mandatory Reshoot.

The rules are really quite clear on this. Plates must fall to score, hits on plates that don't cause them to fall are REF, hots on the support are REF.

Interestingly enough, there is one "Plate" that is sort of out of the norm, It is the "Kansas City Flopper" at least that is what I have heard it called, two paper with a plate on an arm that causes one paper to fall and the other to rise. Often two shoots so that the falling one is a dissapearing target, hit the plate, hit the visible target and the second one should be appearing.

The "Plate" is not a freestanding plate. it doesn't actually fall. It can't be calibrated as plates aren't calibrated, but it can on occasion take a center hit from a minor round and not fall. I suppose REF is the only acceptable answer, but maybe we need to have a "Special Case" rule for certain types or target system that on approval are treated in a different manner than the general rules would have us do.

Jim

No special rules!

If your special targets are not reliable, they are not acceptable for use in a match.

Using this logic any target prop that ever failed would not be allowed. Ever have a popper fail? or a drop turner?

What i am saying, or thought I was saying is that this is a hybrid, neither popper nor plate. I didn't invent it, we just acquired one years back. t generally will work, but if we had a popper that you edged, you could shoot it again or take a chance with calibration. since this particular target is neither fish nor fowl, I was thinking that calibration in this case would be good.

Jim

[Nik Habicht]

Further info. IF a plate falls due to a hit on the support as opposed to the plate, it is REF and a mandatory Reshoot.

The rules are really quite clear on this. Plates must fall to score, hits on plates that don't cause them to fall are REF, hots on the support are REF.

Interestingly enough, there is one "Plate" that is sort of out of the norm, It is the "Kansas City Flopper" at least that is what I have heard it called, two paper with a plate on an arm that causes one paper to fall and the other to rise. Often two shoots so that the falling one is a dissapearing target, hit the plate, hit the visible target and the second one should be appearing.

The "Plate" is not a freestanding plate. it doesn't actually fall. It can't be calibrated as plates aren't calibrated, but it can on occasion take a center hit from a minor round and not fall. I suppose REF is the only acceptable answer, but maybe we need to have a "Special Case" rule for certain types or target system that on approval are treated in a different manner than the general rules would have us do.

Jim

No special rules!

If your special targets are not reliable, they are not acceptable for use in a match.

Using this logic any target prop that ever failed would not be allowed. Ever have a popper fail? or a drop turner?

What i am saying, or thought I was saying is that this is a hybrid, neither popper nor plate. I didn't invent it, we just acquired one years back. t generally will work, but if we had a popper that you edged, you could shoot it again or take a chance with calibration. since this particular target is neither fish nor fowl, I was thinking that calibration in this case would be good.

Jim

The real fix would probably be to have future versions built with an adjustable popper as the activating mechanism.....

[John Baier]

We have 4 floppers at our club and I believe they the can be adusted for light hits

Edited August 7, 2007 by John Baier