John Kane Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 I have the front sight focus down well. I see the sight lift and can call my shots. Now I'm at a crossroads. I've recently found I can follow the front sight with my eyes as it goes up and back down, but that is slow and I have to look way up in the air, lots of eye movement. Or, I leave my eyes where they are and wait for the sight to come back down. When shooting transitions my eyes automatically go to the next target and then wait for the sights to catch up, not sure I want to change that. Shooting splits I tried watching the sight rise and come back down but was much slower than leaving my eyes where they were and watching the sight come back down in my peripheral vision. Should I keep following the front sight with my eyes, get used to it and have that be better in the long run? Or watch it with my peripheral vision like I've been doing? And I admit, I'm terrible with the search function. I did read through the topics on this sub-forum, searched, and didn't find the answer to this question. I apoligize in advance if this has been covered. Thanks, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demetrio Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 Good question... I will keep in touch with this thread, very curious to see the answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 It sounds like you are shooting is a somewhat slow-fire manner. Which allows then gun to hang up in the air a bit. I'll tell you what I tell everybody...do Matt Burkett's timing drills. http://www.doublealpha.biz/tip_burkett.htm You may have some stuff to address with your grip and stance as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 Instead of a very hard front sight focus, which, if you really pay attention to what's happening, cuts out most of your peripheral vision, and up-and-down as well, try relaxing your vision. You're looking to see everything out there, not just tunnel visioning in on the sights. You'll find that allows you to see much more of the up-and-down arc of the sights' movement. It's kind of like going from TV to widescreen movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 It's kind of like going from TV to widescreen movie..... While wearing 3-D glasses :) Do what Duane said for 3 or 4 practice sessions, and I think you'll be well on your way to "seeing" faster, as well as shooting faster. Total Awareness is not as easy to learn as we would like it to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 All you have to see is the front sight lifting out of the notch a bit, and then again right as it's coming back down into the notch. There's no reason to see or try to see any more than that. Depending on the difficulty level of the shot(s) and if you're shooting a string of shots on the same target, you may see more of the front sight's travel than that. But that will just happen naturally - as long as you're not trying to see too hard or too much. And like Duane said (paraphrasing), to see that just calmly look in the area where the front sight is. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kane Posted July 18, 2007 Author Share Posted July 18, 2007 Thank you for the great responses! I'm a religious reader of this forum but wish I could contribute more. This is such a great place full of fun and great information. Thanks to all that make it happen! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 You gotta be careful in times like this when you start "defining" something. Nobody sees exactly the same way. It sounds to me like you're watching the front sight. Instead of just seeing the front sight. Big difference. All of this happens too fast. You can really only observe (at a high speed) what's going on. It is extremely difficult to truly watch what is going on. It's like what they say about listening. There's a difference between listening and just hearing. In shooting, you have to find that balance between "listening" and "hearing" J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronEqualizer Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 John what kind of splits are we talking? I am curious to know what range splits you are refering to as slow when you track the sights. You may just be blessed with extremely fast vision. IE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kane Posted July 18, 2007 Author Share Posted July 18, 2007 John what kind of splits are we talking? I am curious to know what range splits you are refering to as slow when you track the sights. You may just be blessed with extremely fast vision.IE I made the mistake of not checking the timer when I was doing it. I just happened to notice I could do it and when I watched the sight all the way up and back down it felt slower, but may have been faster. It was just something new that I hadn't noticed before and hence the question. I didn't want to leave a tool unused if it could help me. But to answer your question, I was averaging about .35 on a 25 yrd A hit. I was doing the draw and one drill for 2 A's at 25 yards that DP40 mentioned. Total time was 1.65ish. And since you're interested... I started this drill at 40 yrds which is when I noticed I could follow the sight. I think the front sight focus for that distance is what allowed me to see it. Those were .5-.6ish splits, obviously slower. So this was probably the product of what Brian mentioned. I just hadn't seen it before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 It sounds to me like you're watching the front sight. Instead of just seeing the front sight. I like that differentiation. Cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierruiggi Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 At one point, I was watching the sights lift, and I found a problem. I'm aming at a spot on the target, right? well, when the sight lifted and I followed it, I'd have to "re-find" that spot on the target again to shoot. Like it's been said, watching is not the same as seeing. I'm experimenting with keeping my eyes "fixed" at a spot in a target, while keeping my eye focus flexible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kane Posted July 22, 2007 Author Share Posted July 22, 2007 You guys rock! I won my first match this weekend! And it's b/c of your help! Brief summary if you're interested... Stage 1: I am usually VERY deliberate so I can just get the first stage behind me and not dork it. But this time I just went with the attitude of see what you see and I smoked it. Felt great. A little looser than I'd like but called my shots and made up a couple. Stage 2: Lots of long range shots so I went in thinking, "Front Sight, Front Sight, Front Sight." And that one was terrible. Too focused on one thing and really forcing it. Fast forward to the last stage: (in case you've read this far) LOT'S of no-shoots. Again, usually I would have been very deliberate. I had the luck to realize my mistake in Stage 2 and remember ya'lls coaching so I just relaxed and felt like an observer as to what was happening. They called out the time and I couldn't believe it. What an incredible experience. It felt like the Tom Cruise solo sword fight scene in "The Last Samurai" only in reverse. To me it all happened slow while I was shooting and it wasn't until I finished and replayed it in my mind that I realized how fast it actually was. A class here I come! Thanks again, John PS, and special thanks to the Waco CTRP club. Great folks and a great match! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 John, to answer the question of "what next" (which didn't seem to get touched on... maybe I missed it...).... After you see the sights lift and confirm where the shot went, you're going to do one of two things - either shoot the same target again, or shoot a different target (which may or may not require movement). If shooting the same target, not much to do - be aware of the sights returning, and break the shot as the sights align again in the A-zone. If shooting a different target, snap your eyes to where you want to hit that next target, and allow your body to drive the gun over - this starts ideally while the gun is still moving upward in recoil, though you may not be fully aware of when the gun starts moving to the next target. Focus on that spot you want to hit, and be aware of the sights aligning on that spot, and break the shot as they converge. As to how much of that you see, how much following of the front sight occurs, etc... I think I agree with Jack that its an individual thing, and with Brian that anything else you catch in between isn't strictly required, but usually doesn't hurt. I can shoot my .40 on close range targets, and be target focused - and yet still be aware of the sights aligned exactly where I'm looking, see the sights lift, see the front sight through the entire travel of recoil, and see the sights align again... all without ever actually focusing on anything but the target. This mates up exactly with Jack's emphasis on "seeing", not "watching".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthpawG26 Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 (edited) I'm aming at a spot on the target, right? well, when the sight lifted and I followed it, I'd have to "re-find" that spot on the target again to shoot. You shouldn't. As Brian says, "you accept the hold", i.e., your sights settle back, and you accept that the gun is then again pointing at the spot you shot at previously. As your awareness grows, you get more and more peripheral feedback on where the gun is pointing on followup shots, while still primarily "seeing" the front sight. Edited July 23, 2007 by SouthpawG26 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 All you have to see is the front sight lifting out of the notch a bit, and then again right as it's coming back down into the notch. There's no reason to see or try to see any more than that. Depending on the difficulty level of the shot(s) and if you're shooting a string of shots on the same target, you may see more of the front sight's travel than that. But that will just happen naturally - as long as you're not trying to see too hard or too much. And like Duane said (paraphrasing), to see that just calmly look in the area where the front sight is. be Or for me, stay where you know the sight will return... I see it go, but if everything's right it's going to come right back. By keeping my focus low I can break the shot as soon as I see it drop back into the A range. I shoot a dot, so I see it lift, but don't follow... I keep my focus in the middle where I see the dot and the target as clear as possible and don't have to move my depth to know where on brown I am...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 (edited) All you have to see is the front sight lifting out of the notch a bit, and then again right as it's coming back down into the notch. There's no reason to see or try to see any more than that. Depending on the difficulty level of the shot(s) and if you're shooting a string of shots on the same target, you may see more of the front sight's travel than that. But that will just happen naturally - as long as you're not trying to see too hard or too much. And like Duane said (paraphrasing), to see that just calmly look in the area where the front sight is. be Now I know I'm on the right path... I responded before I read this. Edited August 2, 2007 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisStock Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 The only way that I can see it rise and fall straight back into place 100% of the time is when I shoot one handed, either strong or weak. I can't quite catch it shooting with both hands... it seems to move too fast. Probably a matter of grip on my part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chie Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 All you have to see is the front sight lifting out of the notch a bit, and then again right as it's coming back down into the notch. There's no reason to see or try to see any more than that. Depending on the difficulty level of the shot(s) and if you're shooting a string of shots on the same target, you may see more of the front sight's travel than that. But that will just happen naturally - as long as you're not trying to see too hard or too much. And like Duane said (paraphrasing), to see that just calmly look in the area where the front sight is. be I hope Brian can answer this one. Can you really visualize the front sight lift out of the notch and back down the notch? Is it like in slow motion or something different? Because when I align my sights on a target as soon as the gun goes off, I could not track the front sights lift or go back down and have to look for it again and align it on the rear sight for the 2nd shot. I wonder what the GM's exactly see when the gun goes off? So atleast I would know what to look for Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 No GM here, but I'll try and post my experience. When shooting a .40" in Standard (Limited), upon breaking the shot I can see the front sight having something like a tremor, then jumping skywards. For me, it starts lifting like a space shuttle taking off: it's slow at first, and I can see it lifting until it's almost completely above the rear sight notch, then it picks up warp speed and I loose track of it; I guess this comes from the fact that I keep looking to the (now empty) rear sight notch, and don't try to trace the whole front sight path. Then, when the gun realigns, the front sight lands back into the notch. I'm not aware of the complete descent path: it materializes itself into the notch, and (depending on the grip I'm applying to the gun) I can see it trembling a bit or not. This is almost all I'm able to see of the front sight upon firing. If, as soon as the shot breaks, you're loosing track of your front sight (not even noticing it starts lifting), there might be a slight chance that you're blinking upon firing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...lite=sight+lift Chie, Those search results (link above) came from going to the search page (the actual page, not the little tab for searching)...putting in Brian's forum name (benos) in the 'filter by forum member name' filed...putting "sight lift" (in quotes) in the search terms box...'search in" ALL Forums...searching 'entire post'...show results as "topics' Try some variations of that and you should be able to find quite a bit of Brian's thoughts on the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chie Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Luca & Flexmoney, Thanks for the tips. Will ask for a bud's assistance to see if I'm blinking or not. Chie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chie Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Luca & Flexmoney,Thanks for the tips. Will ask for a bud's assistance to see if I'm blinking or not. Chie Hey Luca & Flexmoney, After more than 2 months of being unsure . I finally found out that I am not blinking I guess I really have to concentrate in seeing the front sights lift and open my eyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 The gun makes a big difference in how much of the front sight you see too. We downplay equipment, indian and not the arrow, etc, but some guns are drastically easier to track the front sight than others. With some guns I see the lift, lose the sight, and then see it dropping into the notch. With others I see the sight lift and rise, pick up speed going up, decelerate, stop at the peak, start back down, increase in speed and then glide to a stop exactly where it lifted from. The guns I can see all that detail with seem slow, but I can't even approach outrunning the front sight and neither can anyone else I know. Point? I am not sure, but I wouldn't worry about how much of the track you can see if you can see the lift and at least enough of the front sight returning to get a good prep going before it lands. The more of it you can see the easier the gun is to shoot for me. I am REALLY into the quality of the front sight track and enhancing the quality of the front sight track. Splits, transitions, and accuracy all improve bigtime when I have a gun with a very high quality front sight track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chie Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 The gun makes a big difference in how much of the front sight you see too. We downplay equipment, indian and not the arrow, etc, but some guns are drastically easier to track the front sight than others. With some guns I see the lift, lose the sight, and then see it dropping into the notch. With others I see the sight lift and rise, pick up speed going up, decelerate, stop at the peak, start back down, increase in speed and then glide to a stop exactly where it lifted from. The guns I can see all that detail with seem slow, but I can't even approach outrunning the front sight and neither can anyone else I know. Point? I am not sure, but I wouldn't worry about how much of the track you can see if you can see the lift and at least enough of the front sight returning to get a good prep going before it lands. The more of it you can see the easier the gun is to shoot for me. I am REALLY into the quality of the front sight track and enhancing the quality of the front sight track. Splits, transitions, and accuracy all improve bigtime when I have a gun with a very high quality front sight track. True that! I tried a friends STI in limited sweet cycling action, no snag, and really smooth and flat shooting I guess because of the long dust and bull barrel that gives a heavier front weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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