Dwight Stearns Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) There you have it. If you disagree, don’t take my word for it. Try watching some of the shooting shows such as Shooting USA. Pay particular attention when the camera shows a face on view of one of the world class shooters as they engage multiple targets. Watch his eyes. If both eyes are open, and you look close, you will probably see he is focusing on the targets, not the front sight. C'mon man. I can tell you from both personal experience during shooting and from talking to the best shooters in the world...they watch their sights. When they don't...they tend to miss. I've had a ton of cops come through my range with these same ideas....and there are a lot of bullet holes in the ceiling to prove it. Instead of telling us what the top shooters do....email them and ask them for yourself. I didn't say they don't see or watch the sights. Many (including Eric) just don't focus on them. Edited January 23, 2009 by Dwight Stearns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xfactor Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) Maybe this is why when shooting an open gun you focus on the target and when you switch back to limited you are focusing on the target.(looking through the sights but the clear focus is on the target you still see the sights but not clear) I totally agree with your thoughts on this... but Eric was pretty clear that he focuses 100% on one or the other. I dunno, I guess I just find BE's description of different types of focuses to make more sense. ...First, for me there is no half focus on sight or target, either you focus on one or the other one.For me the focus must be on the target, otherwise as you mention it will be hard to call your shots... I also don't get Eric's notion that shot calling is hard to do without a strict target focus... My understanding of shot calling is a snapshot of the sight picture as the shot breaks. Edited January 23, 2009 by Xfactor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 There you have it. If you disagree, don’t take my word for it. Try watching some of the shooting shows such as Shooting USA. Pay particular attention when the camera shows a face on view of one of the world class shooters as they engage multiple targets. Watch his eyes. If both eyes are open, and you look close, you will probably see he is focusing on the targets, not the front sight. C'mon man. I can tell you from both personal experience during shooting and from talking to the best shooters in the world...they watch their sights. When they don't...they tend to miss. I've had a ton of cops come through my range with these same ideas....and there are a lot of bullet holes in the ceiling to prove it. Instead of telling us what the top shooters do....email them and ask them for yourself. Everybody should keep in mind that Dwight Stearns is a top competitive shooter in his own right, and has been extremely successful at the highest levels of several handgun disciplines. Whether you decide to agree with him or not, his thoughts are worthy of attention and consideration. So listen up. (And then afterward, we'll burn him at the stake for his heretical preachings.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheik_djibouti Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 more precision, front sight focus. more speed, intermediate or target focus. more brass, no focus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Thanks for the link to the article, Dwight. There is stuff in there that I agree with and some conclusions that I disagree with...from my experience. I hope I get some time to address those points and further the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Dwight, Fascinating article. It's good to read the thoughts of someone who's willing to think outside the box - and then be honest about it afterwards. Becoming a better shooter, I find, is a constant process of experimentation, and questioning the conventional wisdom. Sometimes when you do that, you find the conventional wisdom is the conventional wisdom for a reason. Sometimes you find that something that works really, really well for other people doesn't work very well at all for you. Sometimes you find that something else - that the conventional wisdom says shouldn't work at all - works ever so much better for you. But we need to have the mental flexibility to at least try the other stuff. Y'know, recently a reader sent me an e-mail saying, "I read your article on big dot sights versus post/notch. I was always curious about that and wondered if I should test that out. Since according to your article it's pretty much a wash, now I don't have to test it myself." Well, how nice. But the reason I tested it out was so I could know for myself instead of taking anyone else's word for it, not so that other people wouldn't test things out for themselves. Who knows, if this guy did test things for himself, he might find his results significantly different from mine. That's wouldn't mean that either he or I was "wrong", just that different people are, well, different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Amen Duane! BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Well I did a test of this(target or sight focus) sat at the range look here for the results of what I found for me. Had to experiment this for myself. BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I posted this on BK's thread, but I'll copy it here. I went to the range to find out about target focus vs sight focus. Now I was shooting at a plate rack @10yds. I found when shooting a target focus that I could hit the plates but not with any consistency and the trigger manipulation was not as smooth. So I went to a sight focus and the results were much better I could hit the targets with consistency and trigger manipulation was with out any thought and smooth. Nice observation. It's my belief that we are getting constant and better feedback on what is going on when we are on the front sight. That allows us to self-correct for things like trigger control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shopgun Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Eric's method works for me. I treat the FO front sight like it is the dot on my open gun. I'm hearing that not focusing on the front sight is the same as not SEEING the front sight. If thats your problem , then you got a problem. I see the FO lift off the target the same as a dot sight. I'm not conciously seeing the rear sight at all, but the front sight is centered perfectly when I do focus on it. When I do my part, The hits are there. But I can miss with my open gun too. I've only had one Serious social encounter and you can damn well bet I focused on THAT target when I broke the shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double_pedro Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 In his article, Dwight Stearns identifies three types of focus: binocular, retinal and concentration (see exerpt below). As he describes them, binocular focus is the way the eyes point as a converging pair at a distant object, while retinal focus establishes the distance at which an image is in focus. I was surprised that he dismisses the combination of binocular and retinal focus as "not something that can be done at high speed or while under high stress". FWIW, this is how I would describe shooting with both eyes open - use a retinal focus on the front sight and a binocular focus on the target. This gives one target image and two front sight images but it is easy enough to ignore the second front sight image. I'm curious to hear how does this compare with others who shoot with both eyes open. Excerpt from article by Dwight Stearns: "First off, what is focus and is there more than one kind. I’ll answer both those questions at the same time. I believe there are three kinds of focus that shooters deal with. First there is binocular or stereoscopic focus. Binocular focus is the convergence of both eyes on a single point. The second type of focus is when the muscles within the eye reshape the lens in accordance with the distance to the object to create a clear image of the object on the optic nerve. We will call this retinal focus. Usually during binocular focus, retinal focus also occurs because the muscles that control the eye and the muscles that control the shape of the lens are designed to work in sympathy with each other without any conscious effort. I state they usually work together because it is possible with concentration to have binocular convergence on a distant object and focus the lens of the eye on something closer . But it is not a natural act and not something that can be done at high speed or while under high stress. The last type of focus is one of the most important types of focus for shooters and that is the focus of concentration. We will get to this more in a minute. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwight Stearns Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Eric's method works for me. I treat the FO front sight like it is the dot on my open gun. I'm hearing that not focusing on the front sight is the same as not SEEING the front sight. If thats your problem , then you got a problem. I see the FO lift off the target the same as a dot sight. I'm not conciously seeing the rear sight at all, but the front sight is centered perfectly when I do focus on it. When I do my part, The hits are there. But I can miss with my open gun too. I've only had one Serious social encounter and you can damn well bet I focused on THAT target when I broke the shot. Thanks for the input shopgun. Good to hear you finished first in the only match that really matters. If you don't mind, I'd like to add you to my pool of those that have seen the elephant and they're physiological reactions. (ie. threat focus) I don't need any names, just the info you've already provided. As a police officer and police firearms instructor I try and look for places that competition and real life overlap. Threat/target focus is real life and I have found is also one of the things that can also work in competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shopgun Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Dwight, Don't mind at all.PM me if you need more. I remember you from the Masters when it was the MASTERS. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h8dirt Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I look forward to see what Flexmoney-Kyle has to say about this topic. I've talked this one to death. Front sight focus is where it's at, IMO. Imagine some goon is bearing down on you with bad intent -- are you going to be focused on him or your sight? In reality, you will not be able to take your eyes off the threat. Learn to focus on the target and move the sights to the POA. Practice like you play. P.S. That's how the Deltas train their folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Little brown targets do not have "intent" nor are we training to be "Deltas". This Forum is about shooting targets. Lets keep it that way please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwight Stearns Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 (edited) As one who shoots competition and trains for the ultimate match I pray never happens, I look for places competition and real life might overlap. Target focus is one of those many places which includes but isn't limited to the ability to handle the firearm and the ability to somewhat control the adrenalin dump. Now I don't wish to try and turn this great forum into a self defense site (there are enough of those out there) but when something works in both worlds, I set up and take notice. Target focus may not work for everyone just like the same grip, arm position and stance don't work for everyone. Just keep an open mind and be willing to try different things. I believe that's how TGO and BE jumbed to the top of the heap back in the early 80's. Have an open mind and question everything. Good Shooting Dwight Edited March 5, 2009 by Dwight Stearns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 One thing I have noticed for me with experimenting with front sight focus vs target focus is that my perception of time is misleading. Doing plate rack drills similar to what Brian outlined previously, It always seemed to me that I was shooting faster with a target focus. When I would use a front sight focus it seemed to take longer but the timer does not lie and almost always front sight focus was faster. Front sight focus also results in far fewer misses for me. (and I can't miss fast enough to do well) This also backs up experiances at matches when i would run a stage and at the end think to myself, geeez that was slow, and I end up winning the stage. And when that happens I can replay every shot in vivid detail. I will soon be able to do this every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Dwight, Would you agree that the most accurate feedback comes from the sights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwight Stearns Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Dwight, Would you agree that the most accurate feedback comes from the sights? Absolutely. I see and concentrate on the sight picture for every shot beyond a couple yards and can call the shots. i just don't focus on the front sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Dwight, Would you agree that the most accurate feedback comes from the sights? Absolutely. I see and concentrate on the sight picture for every shot beyond a couple yards and can call the shots. i just don't focus on the front sight. Dwight I think I understand what your saying. So you are looking through the sights(I do do this on wide open close targets I could not get away with this consistently on the plate rack.) and a focus on the target? I tried the sight focus and target focus thing the results are posted in post #34 above. Not saying this result is for everyone but it is what I discovered for my shooting. BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 One thing I have noticed for me with experimenting with front sight focus vs target focus is that my perception of time is misleading. Doing plate rack drills similar to what Brian outlined previously, It always seemed to me that I was shooting faster with a target focus. When I would use a front sight focus it seemed to take longer but the timer does not lie and almost always front sight focus was faster.Front sight focus also results in far fewer misses for me. (and I can't miss fast enough to do well) This also backs up experiances at matches when i would run a stage and at the end think to myself, geeez that was slow, and I end up winning the stage. And when that happens I can replay every shot in vivid detail. I will soon be able to do this every time. I'll have to totally agree with this one. For me, front sight focus seems alot slower (mentally) to pull into the sight, but the timer never lies !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwight Stearns Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I shoot a lot of steel and I found early on that the most dificult thing when focusing on the target was learning to fight the tendency to watch the plates fall (fire and forget). It would distract me from the next shot. I did find I could fire and forget better when focusing on the front sight. I was able to overcome the tendency by locking my plates on my rack in the up position and shooting and just ringing them. Well, that and several thousands of rounds. In fact, when I am in the zone, I see the bullet impact, watch the sights move to the next plate and watch the previously hit plate(s) fall all at the same time and when I get done it seems to have all happened in slow motion. All done with target focus. I love it, It's wild. I do see the sights though, just not in focus. A fellow shooter at the Big Dawg Steel Match a couple years ago asked me how i can make a follow-up shot on a missed plate so fast. I told him I just read the sights and call the shot. If I call it bad, I make an immediate follow-up. Good shooting all Dwight Stearns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Fascinating subject. I suspect that the ultimate action pistol shooter would be capable of focusing one eye on the front sight and the other on the target. . But alas. If an uber Master shooter were to borrow my eyes would he still be...uber? He'd be far better looking sure but well shy of his expected point total. This topic assumes that we all "see" exactly the same thing at exactly the same time-focus. Not possible. We all adapt to our individual visual limits. The better shooters seem to have found the path to least resistance. And none are exactly alike. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 ....... And none are exactly alike.Jim BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shopgun Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 : Little brown targets do not have "intent" nor are we training to be "Deltas". This Forum is about shooting targets. Lets keep it that way please. usPRACTICLEsa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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