Jim Norman Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 Ok, We keep coming back to this question over and over. All of us I think realize that the Combined Results are UNOFFICAL. However like so many others do, we also post the combined results. Do we award prizes on this basis? No. Does anyone wind up with a bar tab on this basis? Likely. So, what would be wrong with having the unoffical results posted? If I as a lowly A L-10 shooter "Beat" a M or GM Production shooter, I can feel that just maybe I am starting to understand course breakdown or maybe seeing the sights lift. We aren't really providing anything new here. All the info is already posted. All we are doing really is putting it in a user friendly format. If anyone wants to comment, please keep civil, but go ahead. I am obviously NOT a Professional Pollster. I tried to word this so it is not loaded. Thanks Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 I like having the combined results, finals and all. There ought not to be any arguments over them, they are as stated unofficial. Bar tabs in all fairness should be decided by Division with official results. Drinking is far too important to be left to the vagaries of an algorithm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 (edited) I love the combine results especial when shooting revolver. There might be only two revolver shooters at a match and it's nice to see were we stack up against all the rest despite the bucket we have one foot in. Edited May 15, 2007 by mcb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazos SC Shooter Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 I like seeing how I compare to the whole field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 Combined results are a good thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San_Esteban Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 +1 to Dale's thoughts on Priorities Later, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 I my perfect world we would ONLY have combined overall and stage results. To be referred to as match results. From these match results, equipment choice and special category tags would delineate the winners of each division/category. Why did we start separating out and compete only against those using the same equipment? The answer if I recall was the starting of Limited division. Before this (as many of you remember) awards went to the top competitors in order of finish. Match directors (or USPSA headquarters) could award any “category” i.e. top lady, junior, old gummer, cop, military, revolver, stock gun, etc. using only the match results. Every competitor that wins now would have won then except for the “flip flops” that WE created. If we had not started this we would have never known about “flip flops” so no one would care. In my perfect world we would still award multiple places in each division/category based on participation and overall finish via the match results. One hit factor for every stage. One winner for every stage. Multiple winners by overall finish based on match results. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 Overall results are nice to have when you do something well. The times you screw up they are not as nice. But it is always good to know where you stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hey QuicksDraw! Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 Can someone explain what causes flip flop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 Can someone explain what causes flip flop? Stew, you're shooting production, and win B class based off the hit factors of the high production shooter --- a Master who wins most but not all stages. In fact you win a stage in Production. In the overall results, the high hit factors are set by three different open and one limited shooters, which changes everyone's production point totals, (as the result of the new combined HHF) and causes the second "B" shooter to slip past you, rather than trailing just behind you..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPSCDRL Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 Can someone explain what causes flip flop? Stew, you're shooting production, and win B class based off the hit factors of the high production shooter --- a Master who wins most but not all stages. In fact you win a stage in Production. In the overall results, the high hit factors are set by three different open and one limited shooters, which changes everyone's production point totals, (as the result of the new combined HHF) and causes the second "B" shooter to slip past you, rather than trailing just behind you..... A very good explanation Nick, however you didn't mention that it ONLY matters when you compare INTERIM stage results with final match results. The finals after everyones score has been entered are all that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 I my perfect world we would ONLY have combined overall and stage results. To be referredto as match results. From these match results, equipment choice and special category tags would delineate the winners of each division/category. Patrick My God man are you insane? That would be reasonable, fair and as it should be. Not to mention it would hurt my feelings if some bozo with a single stack .45 out shot me with my open blaster. Seriously though, wouldn't that be like racing Formula 1, Stock and Funny Cars together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 Seriously though, wouldn't that be like racing Formula 1, Stock and Funny Cars together? Yea, wouldn't that be cool. Depending on the track set-up (course design) any one of the cars (divisions) could win! Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scout454 Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 We had combined results up until the creation of L10 and Production. I still have match results from the mid to late 90's/early 2K with combined results. They went away somewhere between the Blue book and the Red book. Pity, it was encouraging to know that you whipped open shooters with a single stack. All of the clubs around here (VA) still post combined results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 I fell that the Open Division results should be the overall combined. After all do not all guns meet the division requirements for Open? Alan, (Loves shooting Open, but Singlestack is a kick ass good time!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 Mini match example of a flip flop. I did this awhile ago on another forum but I thought it might help this thread. Stage 1 160 Points Possible Aggregate Stage 1 Open pts time HF % Match Pts % Match pts Shooter A 150 25 6.0000 100% 160.0 100% 160.0 Shooter B 130 27 4.8148 80% 128.4 80% 128.4 Production Shooter C 151 52 2.9038 100% 160.0 48% 77.4 Shooter D 135 55 2.4545 85% 135.2 41% 65.5 Stage 2 80 Points Possible Aggregate Stage 2 Open pts time HF % Match Pts % Match pts Shooter A 76 10 7.6000 100% 80.0 100% 80.0 Shooter B 69 12 5.7500 76% 60.5 76% 60.5 Production Shooter D 75 11 6.8182 100% 80.0 90% 71.8 Shooter C 70 13 5.3846 79% 63.2 71% 56.7 Overall Production Match Points Shooter C 223.2 Shooter D 215.2 Aggragate Overall match Match Match points Shooter A Open 240.0 Shooter B Open 188.9 Shooter D Production 137.2 Shooter C Production 134.1 I hope the formatting worked OK, coping from excel is iffy at best. None-the-less here in our 2 stage mini match you can see that on stage 1 the Open guys blew the doors off the Production guys as far as HF went. Since match points for each stage are based on your HF% compared to the best shooter when we look at the aggregate match point for stage one shooter C (the best production shooter on the stage) he only got 77.4 point out of a possible 160. Now on the second stage that was shorter, only 80 pts possible, the production guys are able to put up HFs closer to the Open guys. Shooter D is best in production and gets 71.8 points of the possible 80pts. So when you look at the overall production match points shooter C wins production. He got all 160 pt in stage 1 and 56.7 in stage 2 where shooter D got 135 and 80 respectively. But when you look at the aggregate scores shooter D is ahead of Shooter C. This is due to the fact that the both got there arses handed to them on the first stage by the open guys so neither of them got many point compared to the possible points. So in essence since the Open guys did so well on stage 1 it weighted the stage lighter for the production guys. When we looked at just production alone this stage contribute a lot more point to the production shooter than it did when we looked at the overall aggregate scores. Hope that helps a little mcb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 It is only a flip flop if you use the combined to award division placing and then run the division reports seperate Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterLefty Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 Well, it looks like I am in the minority once again. Once it was determined that each division was/is shooting a separate match, we should have removed the EZWinScore combine match feature. Yes we all know that it's unofficial, but if you really want to see how you did again the other divisions run the factors manually, or get one of the palm scoring programs and enter you and all of your buddies in it, or even better sign up in open. It's already been stated, but everything fits in open. Kenny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 I've said this before; I'll say it again..... Taran Butler shot the 2004 Area 6 3-gun Championship, registered as Tactical. He inadvertently went minor in pistol. Regardless of that, he STILL beat everyone in ALL other divisions, including Open. THAT is the value that combined results give you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 I did this once before for the uspsa forum. You'll find a sample match file that illustrates flip-flops here: flipflop_match_demo.zip A pdf of the printed results may be seen here: flipflopexample.pdf Oh, and the match file was created with ezws2.29, but 3.01 will convert it for you when you open it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now