What Is Wrong With Production?

[Flexmoney]

Boo...ease up. When the attitudes come out...the threads get closed (or the posts get removed).

[Jim Norman]

I think that there is a grand misconception as regards to Production, L-10 and Lim/Open.

First off, everyone needs to remember that we no longer have one match with a catagory for Limited. We shoot up to 6 separate matches at the same time. Yes, many of us, my self included like to see the combined results. they may be offically meaningless, but they mean something to a lot of us.

How you break down a COF in Open varies from how you do it in Limited and both are "Full Capacity Divisions" How you break down a COF in Production and L-10 varies and both are restricted to 10 after the start. Obviously there is a difference in how you shoot Open and Production.

What we have here is a Big Playing Field. I think that there are currently not too many guns in my closet that don't fit somewhere. maybe that old broom hadle mauser and my Vaquaro, but the rest can be shot in next Sunday's Match.

True enough, some clubs have more of one type of shooter than they do of others. We used to have a very large Open group, now we see more Production and Limited with a fair amount ususally of L10. Rare SS and Rare Revo.

What we have works well. You can shoot a G-17 9mm in Limited, I knw people that do. We have a GM Production shooter that occasionally shoots in Limited, minor and wins, still shooting 10 rounds.

It is a game. Sometimes there are rules we'd like to see changed. Often on reflection, we see the reasons behind the rules make sense to a large portion of the group, rarely will a rule survive if it is offensive to the majority of people it affects. Think of 10 rounds in all mags vs 11 in your first mag in Production and L10. That rule sounded OK, but was in reality not all that needed.It went away. If full capacity Production was needed, we would see fewer people staying in productin than we do.

My opinion only.

Right now I think we need to step back and see what action the BOD takes on the new rulebook. it should be getting near to the time when the decisions will be made. We all surely had enough comments on the proposals.

Jim

[Jane]

I don't shoot production because I don't own any 9mm guns.

Why shoot my Glock 35 in Production and get stuck with a Minor PF?

[Flexmoney]

I don't shoot production because I don't own any 9mm guns.

Why shoot my Glock 35 in Production and get stuck with a Minor PF?

If you reload, the G35 likely shoots as well or better...and/or softer. The (likely) heavier 40 bullet takes down steel better, in my opinion. And, the bullets being a little bit bigger in diameter doesn't hurt much either.

[Mo Hepworth]

I think the L10 (which is what all divisions in Canukistan/Canada have to abide by) and production adds an extra aspect to the shooting games, as you have to figure out the best place to do mag changes......ie: most field stages are usually 3 -4 mag changes. VS. one or none. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to be "able" to lawfully use regular/full capacity mags,.....but it makes the big stages a little more challenging.

Edited May 7, 2007 by Mo Hepworth

[Nemo]

<snip> If your club does a lot of 25-32 round courses where you can shoot them all from one spot, you're going to discourage Production, L10 and SS shooters. (Wheelies will shoot anything).

Yeah, Baby!

[open17]

I don't shoot production because I don't own any 9mm guns.

Why shoot my Glock 35 in Production and get stuck with a Minor PF?

If you reload---try a pinch of fast powder under a 180, for a 130 or so PF. At least as

soft and flat as the 9mm 147 gr mouse fart loads.

[chp5]

I think it would be even more popular if they did away with the 10 Round limit myself.

+1!

[Noah Gladstone]

Full capacity production and shooting limited minor are not the same. If you shot limited with a stock gun you are at a disadvantage compared to a tricked out limited gun. I think allowing production at full capacity would be a problem in states that have magazine limits. It would require two production divisions production-10 and high cap production which would make things too complex

[Loves2Shoot]

Open, Limited, L10, Production, Rev, SS

D, C, B, A, M (GM no awards)

If you go 1-3 for awards/ribons you have 15 awards per Division and 5 Divisions, so the potential of 75 awards per match, (granted you won't have 15 revolver shooters at a regular match in most places.) Add in High Overalls and; Senior, Super Senior, Junior, Lady, Military/LEO

It is to the point that since most everyone would get a "prize" at our club we don't even do it anymore. I think this applies to a lot of the smaller clubs.

What a prize worth if the competition is so dilluted and most folks will get a prize for showing up? It is almost to the point that there are so many combinations that awards have virtually no value. What is the point in having them when we reach that point?

You might as well just give out gold stars to everyone who makes the match.

[Nik Habicht]

We pay awards in the Mid-Atlantic Section. At my match that typically means that we pay division winners ($30, 5 entrants in the division) in Production, Limited, L10, and Open, as well as some sort of class winners ($20, three entrants in class/division not counting division winners) in Production, Limited, L10, and occasionally Open. In a typical month I cut eight checks for an average of 48 shooters, hardly a matter of everyone getting an award just for showing up.

On a couple of occasions we've needed to pay second B or C somewhere ($12, minimum of 8 entrants in class/division.) during months where we had higher than normal turnout.

Over the years some of the most fun races have been for high C in Production ---- my crew of friends are now vying for high B, but there's a group of newer shooters duking it out for high C now. It's fun to watch....

[Loves2Shoot]

Nik,

That illustrates my point even better. You are not rewarding classes very deep and you set a requirement on how many shooters to qualify. If there are only 2 A class limited shooters, no payout. Ding the better guys because the B shooters aren't as good to move up, makes sense. Keep the C guys in C because they don't want to lose in B.

Sort of gaming the payout system, because doing it properly would be too expensive with so many Divisions and Classes.

Edited May 7, 2007 by Loves2Shoot

[Craigar45]

Fascinating to hear all the people in different regions chime in here... I sort of suspected that production's popularity would vary by locality.

In case the original poster wasn't trolling, go to the USPSA website, and pull up stats over the years from major matches, since Production's inception. I have no doubt in some clubs it's not popular, but in some clubs Open isn't popular either, but it's silly to then draw a widespread conclusion...

Boo, not trolling, and nobody is making widespread conclusions. I did ask in my first thread what it is like in your area.

Lawman @ May 7 2007, 09:30 AM) *

<snip> If your club does a lot of 25-32 round courses where you can shoot them all from one spot, you're going to discourage Production, L10 and SS shooters. (Wheelies will shoot anything).

Man, you arent kidding! The guys I see shoot wheel guns on a regular basis at matches are damn fast too!

Anyway, I am content in production... It is great to see that it is alive and kicking too.

I think I will go for that limited gun I want, but mostly for my upcoming three gun debut. Wish me luck!

C

[Flexmoney]

If you shot limited with a stock gun you are at a disadvantage compared to a tricked out limited gun.

Noah, says who ?!?!

[Noah Gladstone]

If you shot limited with a stock gun you are at a disadvantage compared to a tricked out limited gun.

Noah, says who ?!?!

Magwells and 1.5lb triggers are just two of the advantages

[Nik Habicht]

Nik,

That illustrates my point even better. You are not rewarding classes very deep and you set a requirement on how many shooters to qualify. If there are only 2 A class limited shooters, no payout. Ding the better guys because the B shooters aren't as good to move up, makes sense. Keep the C guys in C because they don't want to lose in B.

Sort of gaming the payout system, because doing it properly would be too expensive with so many Divisions and Classes.

Scott,

we're just gonna have to disagree on this one. I certainly don't think we should be paying the single A shooter for a class win against no other A shooters, when he lost the division.....

At CJ we run a five stage match, with a classifier thrown in. That classifier's likely to be worth 90-120 points, rarely only 30-60. That pretty much guarantees that people aren't able to toss the classifier and expect to win their class. Also --- the bulk of the C shooters want their B cards, the bulk of the Bs locally want their A cards, I see both groupls showing up at the classifier specials in the area......

As far as rewarding classes very deep ---- we have provisions to go deeper, if we get the entries......

SS and Revolver are lucky to have a single shooter a few months out of the year, Open often struggles as well.......

The market (shooters deciding which box to check off on their score sheet at registration) seems to be dealing with the "too many divisions" non-problem fairly well in our neck of the woods.....

[Gregory_k]

If you shot limited with a stock gun you are at a disadvantage compared to a tricked out limited gun.

Noah, says who ?!?!

Magwells and 1.5lb triggers are just two of the advantages

perceived advantage

[Loves2Shoot]

So, basically through your "rewards" system you've bribed folks into a couple Divisions That is creative thinkin'

I was more thinking abou the A shooter who works hard and travels to your match and has no clue what the local "mix" is and performs well and gets nothing if your handing out stuff.

I've just seen too many folks stay a class or two below their performance level for too long for prizes and so I'm not keen on the classification system for prize distribution.

[Flexmoney]

Magwells and 1.5lb triggers are just two of the advantages

Again...says who ???

I made Grand Master in Limited without either of those two things on my Glock. Sevigny won the Nationals without them.

[Carmoney]

(Wheelies will shoot anything).

Best compliment I can possibly imagine!!

[JThompson]

So, basically through your "rewards" system you've bribed folks into a couple Divisions That is creative thinkin'

I was more thinking abou the A shooter who works hard and travels to your match and has no clue what the local "mix" is and performs well and gets nothing if your handing out stuff.

I've just seen too many folks stay a class or two below their performance level for too long for prizes and so I'm not keen on the classification system for prize distribution.

Isn't it amazing how many great shooters seem to blow the classifier?

[Nik Habicht]

So, basically through your "rewards" system you've bribed folks into a couple Divisions That is creative thinkin'

Well --- it's not my rewards system, it's the section's reward system. The section also determines entrance fees, and all of this was decided long before I became a match director. I may have been around the last time we raised match fees by a couple of bucks, somewhere around 2004, maybe. FWIW, the thing that persuaded me to shoot Production was one of our local GMs setting up shop there a few years ago. Then some friends with C cards started shooting it, and we quickly had our own little three person match in the middle of a much larger match. Folks are free to shoot whatever they want ---- if you want to move here with a few friends and all of you want to come shoot Revolver or SS or Open, every month, we'll be happy to cut the winner(s) a check....

I was more thinking abou the A shooter who works hard and travels to your match and has no clue what the local "mix" is and performs well and gets nothing if your handing out stuff.

That's probably not a lot different from me taking my B card and Production gear to parts of the country where the only games in town are Limited and Open. At least we're not deciding how this is gonna work on a club by club basis. And an A shooter could win a division around here, if he's good enough....

I've just seen too many folks stay a class or two below their performance level for too long for prizes and so I'm not keen on the classification system for prize distribution.

I believe that's your experience; I haven't seen the same thing locally.......

[Mick]

QUOTE(Loves2Shoot @ May 7 2007, 11:27 PM)

I've just seen too many folks stay a class or two below their performance level for too long for prizes and so I'm not keen on the classification system for prize distribution.

I believe that's your experience; I haven't seen the same thing locally.......

Sandbaggers are alive and well all over!

Leave the Divisions as is. All our shooters seem to get along just fine and

play in more than one division for adventure.

I shot L10 for a couple years and got some decent reloading practice (AND mag cleaning).

I stopped short of getting the next higher class and should've kept going. I suspect the elections of '08 and the resurfacing '94 crime bill will have an impact on our mag capacity and the sport overall...

[Lee Bell]

I'd still like to see a production division that allows whatever will fit in a standard length magazine AND a continuation of the 10 round limit for those that find the more level playing field more to their liking. There's room enough in the sport for everyone.

Lee

I don't understand why some of y'all are so determined to f*ck with Production, which has been a growing and very popular Division by any standards.

I don't know why some of y'all are so resistant to something added if there's people that want to shoot it. Sure production is growing. It grew by one when I temporarily gave up Single Stack to start working on a classification. It's a good division and will grow whether there's a similar division for 'load what you can" or not. Nobody's messing with the division you want. Why should it bother you if they want something else?

You don't like the perceived attack on Production, fine. Call it Minor Limited. The point is not in the name. The point is in that there are people that would like to compete with more rounds in the mag with a production gun. There may be enough to make it worth while to add a division, perhaps not. The only way to find out is to keep communications open by inviting such comments rather than jumping on then, and, if there appears to be enough interest, to give it a try.

Lee

[LPatterson]

It is always fun to read all the threads about cash awards and the number of shooters at a match when 30 shooters is a great match & 40 is outstanding. The Special Classifier had 50 but that had shooters from Washington, Idaho & Canada. Matches here cost $15-20 depending on the club and the section is the whole state so may be a comparison is in order. Let's take a state like PA and compare it to my section the Northern Rockies Section; PA 44,820 Sq Mi pop 11,861.643 - NRS 145,556 Sq Mi, pop 803,655. I don't understand why cash awards are needed with that kind of shooter base when PA is only a part of a larger section. Production numbers are improving about as fast as Open numbers are dwindling.