10.5.3 And 10.5.3.2

[Flexmoney]

We ran a version of Stage 11 of the up-coming Nationals in Missoula.

(click here for pdf file of all of the Missoula Nationals stages)

We ran into a DQ issue that shooters will want to be mindful of.

10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his firearm or causes it to fall, loaded or not. Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the firearm on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided:

10.5.3.1 The competitor maintains constant physical contact with

the handgun, until it is placed firmly and securely on the

ground or another stable object, and

10.5.3.2 The competitor remains within 1 meter (3.28 feet) of the

handgun at all times, and

10.5.3.3 The provisions of Rule 10.5.2 do not occur, and

10.5.3.4 The handgun is in the ready condition as specified in

Section 8.1, or

10.5.3.5 A self-loading pistol has the magazine removed and the

slide locked open, or

10.5.3.6 A revolver has the cylinder open and empty.

This one hurt to have to DQ the shooter. On the surface, he really didn't do anything 'unsafe', he got caught in the belt and suspenders nature of our rules.

The stage requires that the shooter (who starts in a chair in the middle of the stage) place all their reloading ammo on a barrel on one side of the stage. Then, their loaded gun is on a barrel on the other side of the stage. (Stage features lateral movement only.)

We had added two steel plates to the stage, one in each back corner. That made the stage 24 rounds.

We had a shooter, who's plan changed on him a bit once the buzzer went off (I've heard of that happening ). Our shooter went to his gun first (so he had no extra ammo other than what was in the gun). When he ran that dry, he found that he still had some shooting to do from that side of the stage. Still standing near the barrel, he safely placed his empty gun...with the slide locked back...onto the barrel. He then went to the other barrel to grab magazines.

He safely and intentionally placed the gun on a stable object. But, in leaving the gun and going for the mags, he had to go further than 1m away from the gun. Thus, he violated 10.3.5.2

All was handled by the book, and the shooter understood and took the DQ like a stand-up individual. The RO was fresh out of a Level I class, and did an stand-up job as well.

I'm only bringing this up to raise the awareness level on this. We don't see these situations too often. Our shooter's example might serve to remind those going to the Nationals.

[AZ38super]

Did he remove the mag when he locked the slide back?

If the mag was removed, chamber empty, and slide locked back or the gun loaded per 8.1 with safety on then he should not have been DQ'd.

Your description does not answer that part, because he can be farther away just as in the start position as long as the gun was made safe.

[Flatland Shooter]

Its kind of a tough one. You would think that returning the gun safely to the "starting" position would negate the one meter rule, but thats not how the rule book reads.

Had returning the gun to the start position before retreiving my extra mags been in my game plan, this one could have easily caught me a DQ. And many an RO would have missed this one too. Kudos to the new RO in your group.

Bill

[ChuckS]

Did he remove the mag when he locked the slide back?

If the mag was removed, chamber empty, and slide locked back or the gun loaded per 8.1 with safety on then he should not have been DQ'd.

Unfortunately, not so

10.5.3.2 The competitor remains within 1 meter (3.28 feet) of the

handgun at all times, and

The and means they must stay within 1 meter and all the other stuff in 10.5.3.3-10.5.3.6 have to be satisfied also! Looks to me like you have no choice other than being within 1 meter until the RO deals with the situation.

Bummer, but it was a valid DQ as per the current rule.

Later,

chuck

[driver8M3]

my interpretation of that rule is that the shooter may ignore 10.5.3.1, 10.5.3.2, 10.5.3.3 and 10.5.3.4 if they remove the mag and lock the slide back. the "or" seems to indicate that 10.5.3.5 is a separate consideration under 10.5.3.

[Nik Habicht]

my interpretation of that rule is that the shooter may ignore 10.5.3.1, 10.5.3.2, 10.5.3.3 and 10.5.3.4 if they remove the mag and lock the slide back. the "or" seems to indicate that 10.5.3.5 is a separate consideration under 10.5.3.

Sorry --- the "or" simply allows for the gun to be placed in "other than start ready" condition, i.e. it's legal for a competitor shooting prone to unload, lock the slide back, set the gun down, climb to his feet, retrieve the gun and show clear to the R.O. all without being disqualified, as long as he doesn't move more than one meter from the gun while getting to his feet.

[benny hill]

What about the USPSA 3-gun matches that allow you to clear a pistol, drop it, & move on down range with another gun? Do this rule only apply when the R.O. wants it to? It must be the same for all matches. I would not have DQ'ed him.

[pskys2]

I'm curious, once started why set the gun down at all? Running with a gun in hand, loaded or not, is the whole game. And I don't see that the course description precludes that.

Am I missing something?

[LPatterson]

I'm curious, once started why set the gun down at all? Running with a gun in hand, loaded or not, is the whole game. And I don't see that the course description precludes that.

Am I missing something?

No, brain fade at the buzzer. With an Open gun there should be enough ammo in the gun if it doesn't barf. For L10 load the 11th round put the gun on the right barrel shoot T7-11 run to left barrel reload shoot T1-3 reload shoot T4-6. The problem to the plan was the extra plates which depending on the ability to hit the right plate with the 11th shot may be where the plan fell apart. Even with a miss on the right plate the time to make it up is not worth the value.

[mactiger]

What about the USPSA 3-gun matches that allow you to clear a pistol, drop it, & move on down range with another gun? Do this rule only apply when the R.O. wants it to? It must be the same for all matches. I would not have DQ'ed him.

MG rules are different, and specifically allow a shooter to "abandon" a gun. Pistol rules do not.

See here:

MG 3.2:

Written stage briefings for multi-gun stages must also include:

-- Identification of specific targets to be shot with specific firearms

(i.e., T1-T4 are to be engaged with Handgun, T5-T8 with Rifle).

-- Location and ready condition for all firearms used on the stage.

-- Designation of locations and conditions where firearms may be

abandoned (Type-1, Type-2 or Type-3 as specified in MG 10.5.3)

All other provisions of 3.2 (including subclauses) apply.

MG 10.5.3 spells out how and where a gun may be left. The handgun rule is quite specific. As this was not a multigun match, there is no provision for abandonment.

Troy

[Bear23]

Isn't the gun considered loaded at the LAMR signal and is considered thus until the gun is holstered? That's what i took away from a recent RO class.

[mactiger]

Isn't the gun considered loaded at the LAMR signal and is considered thus until the gun is holstered? That's what i took away from a recent RO class.

Yes, but the rules allow you to put it down in one of the "ready" conditions, as long as you stay within one meter, should you feel the need to put it down. This doesn't apply to start positions, as the gun can be farther away than one meter for the start. It applies to the competitor placing the gun on the ground or some other solid object voluntarily during a course of fire.

Multigun rules differ, since we sometimes require you to "abandon" (not my choice of words) a gun during a COF.

Troy

[benny hill]

Mac they need to use the same rule for both since one is no safer than the other. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

[mactiger]

Mac they need to use the same rule for both since one is no safer than the other. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

Well, maybe, but I don't think so. In a normal handgun-only course, there's no reason to "abandon" your gun, other than to set it down because you want or need to. That's allowed, as long as you don't get more than a meter away. In a multi-gun course, there's usually no way to shoot the thing without allowing the competitor to drop it off in a safe mode, and because the course description requires it. The penalty for a dropped gun is the same all around. The rule was actually modified for multigun, not the other way around.

Troy

[mscott]

Part of the fun in this type of shooting is solving the problem. One revolver shooter opted to grab 2 moon clips before going for his gun and it worked pretty well for him.

[Nik Habicht]

Mac they need to use the same rule for both since one is no safer than the other. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

Benny,

so you'd really want to make all handgun stages include a specific place where a gun may be set down, manufacture the bunker or barrel, and include that in the course description?

Because that's usually the difference between USPSA Multi-gun and handgun stages: If we want you to, or if we permit, the grounding of one firearm during the switch to a second firearm, we're pretty specific in telling you where and how that switch must occur......

Handgun matches are limited to a single firearm, which the competitor can carry or may reholster, if he wishes. Should he need to set the gun down, because he needs both hands to rise from prone or kneeling, we've provided a mechanism for that as well.....