Jake Di Vita Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Ya know, for a long time I've heard people say things like "I wish I was shooting a Limited gun rather than an Open gun on this stage" because things were a little more up close and personal than usual. Whenever I hear this and ask why, the normal cookie cutter response is that a Limited gun is faster close up than a Open gun. For the life of me I have tried to grasp and understand this idea. I've even tried testing it, and I have no idea where this is coming from. Maybe people are saying it because they once heard that a national champion said it? Maybe they are saying it for some other reason...I don't know. What I do know is that it simply isn't true, and this type of thinking hurts your mental game in so many more ways than one. Next time you guys hear someone say that, do yourselves a favor and tell yourself that both guns are capable of going just as fast as the other. A few ounces in weight matters about the same to your shooting as the new high zoot technicolor range bag that Johnny Chimpo has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abs Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 So true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 These are the same cats that wish for an XD when they have a Glock...an i-SHOT bag when they have a Cabelas, or Dawson basepads when they have Arredondo. It's much easier to blame inanimate objects for our own shortcomings, even if said objects have any real relevance to our overall performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Provan Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Jake Have you ever found yourself looking for the dot on an open gun while engaging a target that you would point shot with a limited gun? Or looking over the iron sights wanting to see the dot on that 30 yd target? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Ya know, for a long time I've heard people say things like "I wish I was shooting a Limited gun rather than an Open gun on this stage" because things were a little more up close and personal than usual.Whenever I hear this and ask why, the normal cookie cutter response is that a Limited gun is faster close up than a Open gun. For the life of me I have tried to grasp and understand this idea. I've even tried testing it, and I have no idea where this is coming from. Maybe people are saying it because they once heard that a national champion said it? Maybe they are saying it for some other reason...I don't know. Well, I did personally hear Todd once say "I'd probably do better on this stage with my Limited gun" at a match. Explained he was a tiny bit faster with it on close hoser targets like that. Why/how that works for him I don't remember (I vaguely remember something to do with 'shooting out of the notch', but I can't quote it). It's also worth noting that Todd knows exactly how long it takes him to shoot all sorts of targets with all sorts of guns, as opposed to the regular schmoes (and I'm thinking this doesn't include Jake) that might think it's faster because they see more stuff happening, but haven't put in a bazillion reps on identical targets and stages to be sure. Of course Todd spanked us all with his Open gun anyway, so there it is.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Talking w/ Dave and Manny this weekend at the DTC... This topic actually came up, and the consensus seemed to be more that when the match is full of arms length targets, the two divisions compete more equally. When you have lots of long/tight/difficult shots, the Open gun obviously has some advantage, but on close open stuff, its who's the better driver... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted March 25, 2007 Author Share Posted March 25, 2007 Carl, I think you are missing what I'm saying. I'm not saying that a Limited gun is as good as a Open gun at all ranges. I would definetely take a dot any day when I'm shooting at 30 yards. When it comes to spitting distance though...the only real difference is the one you percieve is there. Shred, What Todd said about "shooting out of the notch" is exactly my point. You can point shoot (and I hesitate saying that but I feel you guys will know what I mean) just as easily with a Open gun by knowing what you need to see. No different than a Limited gun at all....just a different picture when you are shooting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Shred,What Todd said about "shooting out of the notch" is exactly my point. You can point shoot (and I hesitate saying that but I feel you guys will know what I mean) just as easily with a Open gun by knowing what you need to see. No different than a Limited gun at all....just a different picture when you are shooting it. Yeah, I think that was Todd's explanation, though the details are murky since it was many years ago-- he wants to see the dot on every shot if he shoots Open, and it takes him a tiny bit longer to wait for it than getting an acceptable front-sight-above-the-notch picture with irons. Were the lens on his scope big enough, the difference would be zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusher Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Next time you guys hear someone say that, do yourselves a favor and tell yourself that both guns are capable of going just as fast as the other. I hear ANYONE say this and I know I GOT EM, they loose, I win end of story, I don't care whos shooting what. They have lost focus and just did a face plant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Having shot many, many more rounds with an iron sighted gun than a scoped one I can say that I am more comfortable with an "extreme warp speed" gross sight index with the former. I agree that it has nothing to do with the equipment, just my comfort zone. I'm sure that as I train with the latter, that comfort zone will shift... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharyn Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 I'll admit... there are stages where I'd prefer a Limited gun, in fact, I said those very words at last night's match. These are my reasons: One particular example is strong hand/weak hand... I am much more comfortable with the sight picture as well as the weight and balance of a Limited gun (or more precisely, a single stack!) when shooting sh/wh. Another scenario is up close and personal when no-shoots are involved. The drop in POI (or whatever it's called) of the dot (when zeroed ~25yds) really gets me... and my scope is mounted fairly low... but even that 1 -> 3 inches can getcha. And, if the no-shoots are positioned closer than the target... ouch. Maybe it is comfort... maybe it is inexperience... maybe it is fallacy... but there are occasions, although few, where I feel I'd rather have iron sights... I'm guilty. Interesting topic, Jake. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 I think Jake is onto a good piece of truth here. Comp, or no comp, a trigger pull every tenth or two, is a trigger pull every tenth or two ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 I haven't seen a difference in shooting an open gun vs a iron sighted gun at close distances...where the difference and advantage is, is when the ranges starting getting out at 25 yards and partials.... with the right training and vision..close range shooting is a horse race..you see, you pull the trigger.. once you have the gun set up right and you have trained..there is no difference.. the doubt or favortism to feel one is better over the other is the lack of confidence in your vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Smoke & Hope comes to mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x21 Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 JakeHave you ever found yourself looking for the dot on an open gun while engaging a target that you would point shot with a limited gun? Or looking over the iron sights wanting to see the dot on that 30 yd target? I have found myself wishing for an IRON SIGHTED OPEN gun on some close open stages! It is a mental game like Jake says, and we sometimes create our own doubts........... Ummm. I am having an iron sighted open pistol put together, just in case & just for fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Jake Have you ever found yourself looking for the dot on an open gun while engaging a target that you would point shot with a limited gun? Or looking over the iron sights wanting to see the dot on that 30 yd target? I have found myself wishing for an IRON SIGHTED OPEN gun on some close open stages! It is a mental game like Jake says, and we sometimes create our own doubts........... Ummm. I am having an iron sighted open pistol put together, just in case & just for fun. Maybe a low dot, like a Doctor Sight would be appropriate? Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x21 Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Maybe a low dot, like a Doctor Sight would be appropriate? Thoughts? For me, it is more of a "retro" thing, back in the ancient times before scopes, we had bomars & comps! Doctor type, maybe just as good though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 (edited) IF I was ever going to shoot Open, which is VERY unlikely, I would take a look at the Doctor type sight, I see it as a much easier transition from iron sights. Just a thought from an Open outsider Edited March 25, 2007 by zhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 IF I was ever going to shoot Open, which is VERY unlikely, I would take a look at the Doctor type sight, I see it as a much easier transition from iron sights. The Docter/JPoint does indeed make shooting an Open gun much more like shooting a Limited gun because of the identical sight height when the Docter/JPoint is melted in. But the Docter/JPoint does not provide the size and brightness of the dot that a C-More does, nor does it give you as big of a window to the target world. I like my JPoint topped Open gun, but do agree that the C-More does See More ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 George I have NEVER even taken a sight picture with an Open gun, but just looking at them, they make sense for Limited cross-over shooters. Seems like they could fix the Dot size etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 I have done the battery upgrade that brightens the dot (doubled-up CR-2016 batteries) and I run an 8 MOA dot in my JPoint. Those things are what makes it acceptable. It isn't as good as a C-More from an optical perspective, but it does work well enough on an open gun that I consider it an improvment over the C-More (for my purposes anyway). My love for the JPoint is mostly based on the iron site height thing and not having to do the hunt for the dot dance when presenting in non-standard shooting positions like the C-More does to me when the muscle memory doesn't align it exactly right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 You can point shoot (and I hesitate saying that but I feel you guys will know what I mean) just as easily with a Open gun by knowing what you need to see. That's what I keep telling myself. I guess I just don't know what I need to see other than the little red dot in the A box. I have always shot irons better than a dot on hoser stuff. Now that I am shooting a dot exclusively, I better get things squared away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 I think it has alot to do with looking over top of the gun. With iron sights you can just look over the top of the gun and see what you need to see on those close targets. For Open, I think its just a matter of us thinking we need more visual input because theres that big thing above the top of the slide, which isn't true. I know on those close targets I sometimes find myself looking over top of the gun, which makes me look through the lens, which makes me want to find that dot, which takes time. I think it has to do with the sight mounted above the slide vs. an iron sights. We don't have a clear picture/open picture(as compared to iron sights) of the target. That Cmore is in the way and makes us "think" we need more of a sight picture. Flyin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Wonder Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Having shot IPSC for many years in both Open and Limited, I always found that the Limited pistol worked much better for up close, hoser stages. Typically, it weighed a bit less and one was able to see the line of the top of the slide better without having the scope to interfere for faster point and shoot type shooting. I would agree with Todd Jarrett as he's certainly one of the most experienced shooters out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted March 26, 2007 Author Share Posted March 26, 2007 Most up close shooting is done strictly by index anyway....You don't need to see the slide more clearly to be able to rely on your It doesn't matter how good or how experienced some shooters are....they aren't infallible. You shouldn't believe something just because it was Todd Jarrett who said it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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