Idpa Rookie - Again

[Flexmoney]

3) How do you handle the unacceptibility of what would be in USPSA an "A/C" hit? Most of the targets are so close I don't want to get the sight picture I need to guarantee "0/0", OTOH, if you don't do that, you're doomed.

I doesn't have to take longer to get a sight picture on close targets. The first step in letting that happen is to believe that it can be true.

[kdmoore]

I'm going to start a poll .... How many threads in this forum will eventually mention RD?

Just because the rulebook says you can shoot as much as you want doesn't mean the SO can't gig you?

Seriously, The wording may be flawed, and the enforcability of the rule may be low, (long, difficult, obscured shots may vs open, easily read, easily hit shots). Still it is clear that they do not want the reason a shooter "wants" to take an extra shot be timing a reload.

If you are shooting the same splits as you are transitions, then this is a losing proposition anyways ....

[Joe D]

Mike, who would start at stage with 3 rounds? Putting three into the head put me at slide lock during a transition latter in the stage.

It is a SO issue. I will never make that call as a SO.

[Jim Watson]

If they don't want me to fire extra shots for whatever reason I "desire" or if they want me to penalize somebody whose fires an extra shot for a desire that is impure, let them specify the stage as Limited Vickers.

The "dumping" provision and the definition of Vickers Count are directly contradictory. You cannot enforce both at once. A bad rule.

By the way, round dumping was a common real world combat tactic in WW II and Korea; it was a lot easier to fire the last couple of shots out of a Garand and reload with a full clip than it was to go through the loose round reload drill to top up when you were expecting the next human wave attack.

[Steve Moneypenny]

Bottom line is round dumping, can't be called by the SO effectively. Many of us out there can fire 3 or 4 shots with 15-18 splits and make sure which ones we want are -3 or mikes all together. And as close as nationals is. if one competitor gets away with it and one doesn't, the cheater may win. So we need to forget the round dumping rule all together or make it all limited round count.

how did round dumping get into a reload with retention/tac load thread?

[dirtypool40]

I know, how did MY lil ole advice for a rookie thread morph into another thread on how to cheat or beat shooters into compliance.

But you're right Steve, I noticed that the upper level 10 round guys look for a spot to give that one round extra and get to a slide lock. In the first five targets, which one is a hard cover, partial or distant? If none, throw one moving. It's still a measure of insurance if things don't go perfectly, but this seemed to be the strategy I was seeing as I got to see more and more good shooters go through more stages. When there were no targets that met the criteria, it got a little obvious, but only once in a while. The 9+1 and esp 8+1 guys had to be more careful and basically shoot everything "limited".

Seeing it in action, at the higher, not even highest but higher, levels it's clear that top shooters see IDPA as just another game with it's own tricks and techniques for finishing well.

Yes, you could negate MOST of this with carefully planned stages to even things out, but who cares, let's shoot. Making IDPA all limited would only take a bad situation and really screw it up.

Close this thread please, and let's get back shooting or at least discussing fun topics.

Edited March 19, 2007 by dirtypool40

[Joe D]

Guess we did ramble a bit. Comes with old age.

[GmanCdp]

Well Joe...getting old,is not the same as getting a table reserved at the Waffle House...i know how all you SSP/ESP masters are.....

rambling ????

basically this dee cuss ion has also pointed out the differences in a west coast theroy and south east theory on what is ROUND DUMPING in IDPA....and if we did a search thru the threads....this issue,between the west and the east will never cease...thank god the north south thing is over....in theroy....

theory:1. rules and techniques: the body of rules, ideas, principles, and techniques that applies to a subject, especially when seen as distinct from actual practice

[Gregg K]

how did round dumping get into a reload with retention/tac load thread?

I think that it came about due to the number of people that find dumping the extra round is faster and easier than the RWR/Tac load. It' kind of the technique to keep from having to do a RWR.

[Duane Thomas]

We're talking about two different things here: (1) firing extra shots to make up misses or iffy shots, (2) deliberately firing extra shots to get to slidelock. Let's not let the occasional necessity of the former be turned into a blanket justification for the latter. They are not the same thing. Saying, "It's a dumb rule," doesn't change the fact it's still a rule, and that breaking it is cheating. There's really no way around that fact.

[Mayonaise]

By the way, round dumping was a common real world combat tactic in WW II and Korea; it was a lot easier to fire the last couple of shots out of a Garand and reload with a full clip than it was to go through the loose round reload drill to top up when you were expecting the next human wave attack.

Very true Jim. The difference being an "offensive" war enviroment vs a "defensive" civilian environment where strays have lawyers and always seem to hit nuns and small children.

Just keep your distance when Joe tells Audrey where to dump rounds in front of the SO. That one cracked me up.

Edited March 21, 2007 by Mayonaise

[Joe D]

Why do you think I "tip" the SO before the stage? There will be a tip jar on several of the stages at the Alabama match.

BTW you did not give me my change from the tip I gave you a couple of years ago. Be sure to bring it with you.

I would never tell her to dump rounds. That is illegal in IDPA. I may have "suggested" where she might need to put an extra round on a target due to distance or movement.

Edited March 21, 2007 by Joe D

[Duane Thomas]

By the way, round dumping was a common real world combat tactic in WW II and Korea; it was a lot easier to fire the last couple of shots out of a Garand and reload with a full clip than it was to go through the loose round reload drill to top up when you were expecting the next human wave attack.

And this has exactly what to do with round dumping in IDPA?

[Jim Watson]

Just that we are constantly admonished to consider real world defensive equipment and tactics in IDPA. I figure the PTO is about as real world as it got.

I have few problems with the rules, nothing like the Trigger Time Squad, but the dumping penalty provison is contradictory bogus BS.

[Mayonaise]

Jim, Just quick scan for the nuns and kiddies in the background and let 'er rip.

It's a silly subject that's been beat to death more times than 10mm in CDP.

But I know it's still dear to your heart.

Edited March 22, 2007 by Mayonaise

[Duane Thomas]

By the way, round dumping was a common real world combat tactic in WW II and Korea; it was a lot easier to fire the last couple of shots out of a Garand and reload with a full clip than it was to go through the loose round reload drill to top up when you were expecting the next human wave attack.

Fortunately, modern auto pistols have detachable box magazines so we don't have to do that.

I figure the PTO is about as real world as it got.

Yes, but the technology was different so the lesson doesn't translate over.

(By way, for those who were wondering, PTO stands for Pacific Theater of Operations.)

Jim, Just quick scan for the nuns and kiddies in the background and let 'er rip.

Hah! Good one.

[Jim Watson]

Yeah, I guess you could call it "dear to my heart" or a festering sore, one.

I guess if I should shoot on Ken's range I would have to ask him which targets I could fire extra shots on without penalty. Which is a form of Bubba's Rule: "Don't worry about the rule book or the CoF, ask the SO what he wants you to do and then do it the best you can."

[Duane Thomas]

Actually in my experience Bubba's rule works pretty well. Though I'll admit that in some cases it can be pretty darn frustrating when the SO hasn't read, or doesn't understand, the Rule Book. ('Course this has nothing to do with round dumping, but there it is.)

[dirtypool40]

The Bubba Rule: "Don't worry about the IDPA rule book or the CoF, ask the SO / TTG what he wants you to do and then do it the best you can."

para-quoted, humor added.

It seems that this is the only way to get through a match "Proc free". This is why the "flavor" of IDPA varies so much from club to club and depends on the disposition of the stage designer.

Yes, I know you guys all know clubs where the rule book is applied to the letter as doctrine every time. Well, that's not the norm. Clubs with the "Bubba rule" in effect ARE the norm, there's just too much left unclarified for it to be otherwise.

Still, it's a chance to shoot a different gun in quick hoser scenarios, and I'll keep going out.

Now, Y'all be nice, and let's get back to shootin'.

Edited March 22, 2007 by dirtypool40

[benny hill]

HEY! If you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough.

[Duane Thomas]

All humor aside (please!), I can't really buy into "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying." Whenever the topic of round dumping in IDPA comes up, in short order so does that old chestnut, right along with "Always cheat, always win." However, it's worth noting that "Always cheat, always win," means "In a real fight to the death, don't let a naive sense of fair play seduce you into giving your opponent a chance to kill you." It does not mean, "It's okay to cheat at the match."

[Crusher]

Anyone else see the IRONY in adopting a rule that is contrary to the prefered scoing method used in the majority of IDPA matches?

"VICKERS SCORING"

Maybe all stages should incorporate "LIMITED VICKERS SCORING" and end it.

[Duane Thomas]

No, I don't see the irony. The Rule Book is very clear on what is Vickers scoring, and very clear on round dumping being illegal. Any "contradiction" exists in the minds of those who want to abuse the rules.

[Glock3422]

No, I don't see the irony. The Rule Book is very clear on what is Vickers scoring, and very clear on round dumping being illegal. Any "contradiction" exists in the minds of those who want to abuse the rules.

Regarding the subject of round dumping-

Having shot major matches in five states, on both coasts, round dumping is called much more closely in the southeast than in the west.

I shot the California match last year and saw an amazing display of round dumping on virtually every stage. If that had happened in the southeast, the procedurals would have been flying. That difference is exactly the situation that created the after the fact penalties against an outstanding west coast shooter at the IDPA nationals two years ago. If he had been penalized on any stage, he likely would not have been penalized so severely after he was done shooting and had left the match. Having received a penalty on a stage, he would have been informed about the limits for that match. Shooting the California match for me was a disadvantage because the rules were not enforced to the degree I expected to encounter. Don't get me wrong, rounds are dumped in the southeast, just not as obviously as they are in California. And don't get me started on low cover. They don't seem to follow the one knee down or the both feet behind cover criteria.

The problem with IDPA rules isn't that there are too many. It is that there is such a disparity of application to what the book says. The LGB only needed clarification. The new book, in my opinion, created more problems than it solved. But hey, it is what it is. It just needs to be enforced consistently. The IDPA rules require judgment and interpretation of intent. That is where the mischief starts.

And now back to the subject-

Since no one other than the shooter can know their intent, round dumping is a call best left for the most obvious of situations. If that is too complicated, it should never be called. No one, other than the shooter, really knows what their intent was or their perception of what needed to be accomplished. A round dumping call disadvantages small calibers and poor eye sight. Now, the judicious application of insurance rounds does reward the shooter. There is no doubt about it. If there was no advantage, there would be no rule against it.

Watching a Master hit two zeros and then mysteriously miss, does create reasonable doubt regarding the purity of intent. Any other combination begs to award the shooter, the benefit of the doubt. See rule book.

It could be that the Master (or anyone else) decided that an insurance round was appropriate right before the reload, since they may have been preoccupied thinking about the next array. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Duane Thomas]

Hey, don't paint all us West Coasters with the California brush. I started shooting IDPA in Washington state in 1997. In the past ten years I've seen exactly one case of round dumping. A brand-new shooter figured out a really trick way to post a great score on this one stage. And it was just blatant. After the stage it was explained to him that what he'd just done was illegal. He was so embarrassed he made a public apology on the club web site the next day. And that's the sum total of my experience watching round dumping in IDPA.