Idpa Rookie - Again

[TxD]

Good point, I need to clarify. This is an outdoor match, various amount of movement.

You're right though, moving along a long wall after you've engaged an array and have plenty of time, then I would feel fine hitting a RWR.

Heat of the moment I'm a SLR guy.

DP.

I predict about 6 procedurals, Those mags are going to be hitting the ground.

Then there's that pie thing.

Just kidding. Have a great match.

Man..ain't it the truth. I always plan my type of reload ...and then dump it on the ground and speedload.

So DP how did you do?

The over/under bet on procedurals here in Texas was 6.

[GmanCdp]

If you were not a dedicated IDPA-er and wanted to be competitive through consistency and points, would you try this? Is this a viable strategy? Being an IPSC guy, it wil be easier to train than the bob out and back RWR stuff. I used to be pretty good at that, but the serious IDPA-ers are leaving me in the dust.

Slide Lock or not to Lock??? RWR????

What would you do?

one important factor to remember when doing a RWR,is be sure your vest pocket is NOT FLAPPED down...it sure helps on doing it faster..that happened to me at the Arkansas state match last year,while on a knee,doing a RWR and hitting the vest pocket 20 times before figuring out what the problem was,then to make MATTERS worse..........some other shooter was video taping it.........it's even funnier in fast forward .....shoot to slide lock

[dirtypool40]

I had fun, and shot to slide lock whenever the course allowed it.

I only remember making one RWR the whole match and it was required.

Seems like a workable plan.

[Duane Thomas]

So how'd you do finish-wise? Enquiring minds want to know.

[dirtypool40]

I posted in the range diary thread.

The short version is, when the gun ran, and I understood the course, I was "in the hunt" and I am told I won several stages outright.

That being said I dropped 30 points in penalties on ONE STRING so I was not reeeaaaallllly in the hunt for HOA.

I also had a mid-stage argument with myself about how to finish without penalties after clearing an ugly double feed. Also NOT a way to win a stage.

The slide lock strategy worked well. I'd do it again.

[Duane Thomas]

It's a good rule of thumb. Like every rule of thumb, there are exceptions that prove the rule. But they are exceptions that prove the rule.

[Joe D]

Gman, that's as bad as what happened to me at your match a few years ago. One of the stages had a couple of strings. I forgot to bring an extra mag. I spent about 10 seconds reaching for a mag that did not exist. I searched all of my pockets and mag pouches in vain. Worst part of all was the camera was rolling.

[Ben Stoeger]

DP,

Man i think you are missing an oppurtunity to pick up time on people by avoiding RWR. Sometimes.. its just the fastest way to do it. If you go SL only.. just for simplicitys sake.. thats fine. But... why give up a little bit of time (usually about 1 second) when you don't have to?

[dirtypool40]

I learned a lot during this match, about how to "legally" cut up a course.

There were a couple of times when I (and the IDPA specialist I shot with) figured it was advantageous to RWR. If there's time and space, hells yeah.

[boo radley]

Don't try to relate the IDPA scoring to USPSA's hit factor scoring. IDPA always requires accurate shots, period. Hosing targets faster in an attempt to make up points down is a poor strategy doomed to failure. Accuracy is what it takes to win in IDPA.

*That* is the truth.

I had a free weekend, and with no chores nor nearby USPSA match, decided to get 'officially' classified; there is a pretty active IDPA community in my area, and I thought it would be fun to shoot some of their matches.

Shot the classifier with my G35 in 96 seconds -- funny how well one shoots with no pressure or expectations -- and ended up "Master" in SSP.

The short of it is, I was humbled badly the next day in the match, and ended up last in SSP/MA. I blame the scoring system in IDPA.

Seriously, I have enough troubles trying to maintain any kind of visual patience in USPSA, but it's clear it will *kill* you in IDPA. These short stages are deadly if you start dropping points, trying to beat a time. I'll hear "10.34" from someone else, and think..."mm...bet I can do it under 9," get a bad grip on the draw (I blame the concealment garment), REALLY try to turn up the speed, and drop 4 freakin' seconds in points down.

So Eric, and the rest of you that cross-over, from time to time, a couple questions:

1) Do you practice drawing from your cover garment? I've been working on my 'regular' USPSA draw, and don't much want to change things....OTOH, I can't be grabbing 1/2 garment, 1/2 grip.

2) Do you spend any time working on shooting one, reloading from SL, then aquiring the same target?

3) How do you handle the unacceptibility of what would be in USPSA an "A/C" hit? Most of the targets are so close I don't want to get the sight picture I need to guarantee "0/0", OTOH, if you don't do that, you're doomed.

Interesting game. Same, but different.

[revchuck]

Boo - I have the opposite problem. I mostly shoot IDPA, and when I shoot USPSA, I rarely shoot other than As...and as slowly as I shoot, I don't have much excuse not to.

[boo radley]

Boo - I have the opposite problem. I mostly shoot IDPA, and when I shoot USPSA, I rarely shoot other than As...and as slowly as I shoot, I don't have much excuse not to.

It's interesting....I did some playing with numbers just now.

Let's take El Pres as an example, and shoot it the same way in both IDPA and USPSA: 2/2/2 reload 2/2/2.

Suppose in either I *know* I can shoot it 100% clean in 9 seconds, which means it will probably be more like 8.5 (or faster) since there's no sense of urgency/tension. Hypothetical times, but probably not far off, for me right now...So let's say clean in either:

8.5 seconds 60 points/ 0 down 7.1hf / 8.5 seconds

If I try to shoot with a less acceptable sight pictures, taking C-hits, or -1's, let's say I will run it in 7.2 seconds, but get a 'C-hit' 50% of the time.

7.2 seconds 54 points/ 6 down 7.5hf / 10.2 seconds

So that's almost 2 seconds lost to the field in IDPA, but a huge improvement in USPSA.

And stretching the example, if it's a good run in both cases, at the 7.2 pace, and I only drop 3 C's, or 3 point down, then it becomes:

7.2 seconds 57 points/ 3 down 7.9hf / 8.7 seconds

Another big increase in USPSA, yet it seems I'm better off shooting it clean in IDPA, so it's going to take a different mind-set. I'll worry about time on the longer stages with movement, but on the short ones, do *nothing* except focus on shooting them 100% clean (which is a lot easier said than done, regardless).

Unless my math is way off?

[miyamoto]

Hello all,

Nice topic

One thing I have noticed about the best shooters in USPSA doing crossover work in IDPA is that they do it almost exactly the same. Fast and accurate.

One of the best shooters I have ever had the opportunity to see is Matt Burkett. He was shooting IDPA esp with 9mm SVI, then not long after IDPA nationals he shot either area 2, or USPSA nat's and won limited shooting 9mm minor. Fast and accurate.

I have done well in the very few USPSA events (more in the future) shooting it the same way I would an IDPA match. Fast and accurate. I only programmed more specific loading technique into my training regimen a week, or two before the event.

Similar to the way you might map out a stage for USPSA, IDPA offers those who are really competitive the same kind of advantages, even on some short COF. Loading technique has to be accounted for as well, as many here realize.

IDPA is tough competitively because it has so many of what I call "components" involved in it. With procedurals for not working these component actions properly (moving, cover, shirts on targets, etc), the overall performance will not be too terribly efficient score wise. Not being technically correct and extremely accurate in IDPA will always have you at a disadvantage in this sport.

Again great topic, congrats to everyone trying to improve

Will

[MHicks]

First, I have not shot IDPA yet. I've been checking out the IDPA website and other places like this to pick up information. Please, correct me if I'm wrong or have information that is out of date. I thought that you weren't supposed to put extra rounds on a target to get to slide-lock purposely. If it happens sometimes, ok, but that you weren't supposed to do it all the time on a continuous basis. thanks, MH

[Duane Thomas]

You're not. It's called "round dumping" and it's blatantly illegal. But that's not what we're talking about, and recommending, here.

[Joe D]

"Round dumping"? Me? I was making up what I thought was a bad shot. How can there be round dumping when Vickers Count scoring says I can shoot a target as many times as I choose?

[Duane Thomas]

When the rules state that round dumping to make the slidelock reload happen at the right time is illegal. "You can make up misses or dropped points" does not translate into "We can cheat."

[Jim Watson]

The rulebook does not say "You can make up misses or dropped points" the rulebook says, "as many shots as desired may be fired."

Then they put in a provision that says that I can be hugely penalized if the S.O. thinks my desire is impure.

Phooey, the worst contradictory bogus BS in the book. I won't call it.

[freeidaho]

The rulebook does not say "You can make up misses or dropped points" the rulebook says, "as many shots as desired may be fired."

Then they put in a provision that says that I can be hugely penalized if the S.O. thinks my desire is impure.

Phooey, the worst contradictory bogus BS in the book. I won't call it.

Duane is right, dumping rounds is cheating. It is as simple as that.

Those that do it, know they are not making up a shot, they know they are cheating. And they have gotten really good at hiding/justifying their cheating with well rehearsed rhetoric, some of which you have seen typed right here in this thread.

It must be very disturbing to know in your heart that you can't win without cheating.

Ken Reed

Edited March 18, 2007 by freeidaho

[Steve Moneypenny]

I will do a tac load depending on circumstances. when moving along 8 ft. or so of cover with a half empty gun.. it's legal so i do it.

this is something i didn't do at all until bob vogel destroyed me on a couple of stages after doing it. then i later tried it. ran a few setups ofmy own and a few places it really did help me. so i think if you want to be a competitor yes. it is a viable solution. you should be able to do all things comfortabally. RWR and Tac but if you find you can't .. then eliminate them. fussing with it will cause you to lose ground real quick.

[Ben Stoeger]

...dumping rounds is cheating. It is as simple as that.

Those that do it, know they are not making up a shot, they know they are cheating. And they have gotten really good at hiding/justifying their cheating with well rehearsed rhetoric, some of which you have seen typed right here in this thread.

Bingo

[Joe D]

Bottom line is it is a dumb rule that I will never call as long as I SO. An unenforceable rule is one that I will choose to ignore as a SO.

Let's see there was a stage in Saturday's match where one of the targets only had the head and a little of the body showing behind a NS. The first shot I took had a good sight picture. The second had the front sight at the very top of the head. I put a third round into the head just to make sure. When scored the first round was center of the head. The second was at the very top of the head 1/4" from the perf. The third was centered by the first shot. The target was in shadow so it was hard to see the hits.

Guess what - that got me to slide lock. Are you going to give me a FTDR for that.

Come down off your false moral high road and get real. Explain to me how you, as a SO, can read someone's mind. How are you going to determine if someone dumped a round or made up a shot? You can't! How many FTDR have you handed out for round dumping?

[Mike P]

How the heck did you get to slidelock after 3 rounds, That sounds sort of fishy, could be penalty-worthy too. That target was not in shadows, but it did have a bunch of pasters on the head, so MAYBE you can slide on the round dumping. No way on the downloaded mag though.

Round dumping, (if such a thing exists) can and should be dealt with in course designs.

Mike

[midvalleyshooter]

Bottom line is it is a dumb rule that I will never call as long as I SO. An unenforceable rule is one that I will choose to ignore as a SO.

Let's see there was a stage in Saturday's match where one of the targets only had the head and a little of the body showing behind a NS. The first shot I took had a good sight picture. The second had the front sight at the very top of the head. I put a third round into the head just to make sure. When scored the first round was center of the head. The second was at the very top of the head 1/4" from the perf. The third was centered by the first shot. The target was in shadow so it was hard to see the hits.

Guess what - that got me to slide lock. Are you going to give me a FTDR for that.

Come down off your false moral high road and get real. Explain to me how you, as a SO, can read someone's mind. How are you going to determine if someone dumped a round or made up a shot? You can't! How many FTDR have you handed out for round dumping?

What if the target has 3 holes punched in the center and is at 2 yards in bright sun light? Where do you draw the line? I saw it happen on Saturday and kept quiet, the SO told the shooter if you do this at a "sanctioned" match you will get a penalty. I can see both sides of this argument. I only control my personal behavior, I choose to not dump rounds to gain an advantage Round dumping is hard to describe, but I recognize it when I see it and I would have no qualms giving the shooter I mentioned above a "P" for round dumping And Joe D, I agree a head shot in the shade may require 3, especially if one of the first 2 felt funky.

Keith

[freeidaho]

Bottom line is it is a dumb rule that I will never call as long as I SO. An unenforceable rule is one that I will choose to ignore as a SO.

Joe,

There are two sides to this issue. The shooter side and the SO side.

From the shooter side, it is cheating to dump rounds. The shooter knows whether they are dumping or not. Hence my post above, which was entirely about the shooter side.

From the SO side, yes it is hard to call on a single shooter, unless he/she blabs. But if you camp out on a stage where a round dump would be useful, you will see shooter after shooter, "need" an extra shot, each with a convenient excuse. It is still cheating, but hard to call.

Two sides to this issue.

Ken Reed