L10 - Keep It Or Lose It?

[mikegot38]

I started out in L-10 and still shoot it quite a lot.

The fact that it is a gateway division makes it worth keeping, but there are a lot of other things going for it.

First of all, it is the poor man's open division.

Every other division is restrictive on the type of gun you can shoot.

L-10 can shoot single stack, single action, double action, plastic, 2011, major, minor, whatever.

Short of optics and a comp, name a gun you can't shoot in L-10.

Also worth mentioning is much more freedom in holster type and placement.

I'm convinced that occasionally running with 10 rounds helps my limited game.

It forces better focus on stage breakdown and I get more reload practice under match conditions.

It's also nice to come to the line without 80 rounds of ammo trying to drag my belt down to my knees.

I see no compelling reason to kill it but that doesn't seem to matter.

Very well said. I shoot open mostly but dabble in LTD and L-10 to shoot against others. Keep it!!! Almost anyone can play here!!

The controversy surrounding this division keeps going like the Energizer bunny.

Why?

I seriously doubt it has anything to do with administrative burden or participation.

The real problem is resentment due to having it forced upon us by Clinton era anti-gun legislation.

A lot of people view it as an uninvited guest that just won't leave the party.

That sentiment is understandable, but regardless of why we have it, the division pulls its weight.

I say we leave it alone and move on.

Tony

[JFD]

L-10 is most certainly an affordable means to get into the sport. Other than running a Glock, where else can you get mags for less than $30? It costs me at least $85 for mags for my Para Limited gun.

My Kimber Custom Classic Target cost $700 and I was as competitive as anyone with it. Even won a state title against a bunch of STIs.

One of the important things to me is the L-10 equipment rules. I know I'm playing a game and see no need for carry holsters or restrictive mag pouch placement. If I want that, I'll shoot IDPA. L-10 is the only "starter" division that offers some rules freedom. I was able to run my Kimber with a CR Speed belt, Ghost holster, and 773 mag pouches placed where I wanted them in L-10. However anyone wanting to use carry gear and have their last mag at their butt crack is free to do so. That's not for me and I wouldn't be a USPSA member if Production and SSD were my only choices besides shooting a SS in Limited.

L-10 was a lot of fun until I got sick of the attacks on the division. My wife and I now shoot Limited, which was a natural transition from L-10.

The biggest thing that gets me fired up these days is just seeing who is shooting L-10 locally and what they are shooting. L-10 is at least as popular as Production around here, and Glocks and XDs outnumber 1911s easily. These people could shoot Production, but obviously they don't want to.

At any rate, without L-10 my wife and I wouldn't be shooting USPSA, our local club would have shut down USPSA 2 years sooner since I wouldn't have been there to be MD, and the SC sectional would have gotten to look elsewhere for a stage for 3 years. More than one local match would be losing our entry fees as well. I'd think someone like me would be a desirable member to have, not someone to run off because some folks who don't understand a division feel it needs to go. If I was to see proof that L-10 was hurting the sport, then I'd have to rethink things.

[ima45dv8]

".....folks who don't understand a division feel it needs to go."

Amen. I think that's the root of this problem. If someone doesn't play in a particular sandbox, why would they be so concerned about those who do? Life is all about choices. Choose a division you like, Load and Make Ready. Tomorrow you can choose a different division, if you please.

Enjoy your choices and leave others to enjoy theirs.

[zhunter]

".....folks who don't understand a division feel it needs to go."

Amen. I think that's the root of this problem. If someone doesn't play in a particular sandbox, why would they be so concerned about those who do? Life is all about choices. Choose a division you like, Load and Make Ready. Tomorrow you can choose a different division, if you please.

Enjoy your choices and leave others to enjoy theirs.

EXACTLY!!!!

And, I have always enjoyed being able to play in more than one box

Edited February 21, 2007 by zhunter

[996fan2007]

Open 10 would allow some .45's to play open again.

Open 10 would be cool. I really miss the days when you might actually have to do a mag change or <gasp!> two during a stage when shooting open. I think the game was more fun back before the widebodies.

That said, I don't think it'd be good for the sport to have another new division. I wouldn't mind getting rid of the 170mm mags and just having 140mm mags though...

If anything, I'd keep L10 and ditch Single Stack.

[LittlePistol]

I know I am a newbie, having just started USPSA in Jan 07, but I love L-10. It has been my platform to enter the sport as I cannot yet afford to buy a widebody to shoot Limited and have no desire to "race" in restricted gear. I wear that crap all day when I am working LE.

I was introduced to this sport with borrowed race gear, an "antique" open gun and a SS .45 1911 (my duty gun). Not to mention, I can't afford the gear required to shoot competitively in Open. I decided I didn't really enjoy Open, but this does not mean I am going to attack a division I don't care to shoot.

I just recently bought a SS STI to compete in L10 and I am REALLY excited about competing with it. Granted, I intend to move up to Limited when funds allow me to buy that $3000 widebody, but I don't see myself ever giving up L-10.

Not to mention, with all of the "proposed politics-driven changes" (written as respectfully as possible as I try to hold down my supper) coming about in many states, getting rid of L-10 could really hurt the sport in terms of members being forced to quit shooting because of a "forced move." Here I am refering primarily to our military troops. I am in the ANG in NM (thank the powers that be, we are still a free state), and am being forced out to MD for 3 months in March. If the new AWB goes into affect out there this month, I may not be able to take my beloved blasters with me.

I guess the point I am trying to make here is what about the rest of our troops, forced by orders to move to an AWB state? How would many of you feel if you had to move somewhere where you were not allowed to bring your hi-cap race guns?

This AWB stuff is bad enough, why start turning on ourselves by eliminating a division that allows those in AWB states to "race" without putting them at a disadvantage by forcing them to compete against the Hi-Cap guys?

Edited February 22, 2007 by LittlePistol

[ima45dv8]

Newbie or not, that was nicely put, Billie.

[LittlePistol]

Thanks (blushing icon inserted here)

[38superman]

You make a good point Billie.

Welcome to the sport and to the forum.

You will find them both highly addictive, but fortunately, still legal.

Tls

[LChico]

Does it hurt anyone? I don't think so...

This is important to me. I only have a stake in L10 and SSD arguments as it relates to the health of the USPSA, meaning I shoot neither division. I know there's a certain amount of money that must be spent to administratively maintain these divisions.

My opinion, is that the membership of these divisions must pull their own weight monetarily. I'm not saying that currently they're not, because I don't know. I'm saying my opinion of this hinges on whether the membership at large is subsidizing what may not be a financially viable niche.

I don't want to meddle in a division I don't care to shoot but I've heard whispers that financially it doesn't make sense to continue with both. I'd like to know where things really stand.

Does anyone have the numbers with quotable sources?

Well, I cannot quote numbers from everywhere, but I'll start with the last 12 months at my local club. $3.00 per shooter goes to USPSA:

OPN 117 $351

LTD 214 $642

L10 151 $453

PROD 153 $459

REV 35 $105

SSD 12 $36

total 682 shooters for $2046

The South Carolina State Sectional Match draws more Open shooters (as a percentage of total shooters) but L-10 and Prod are both equally popular. $2.50 per shooter goes to USPSA:

OPN 45 $112.5

LTD 52 $130

L10 32 $80

PROD 32 $80

REV 9 $22.5

SSD 5 $12.5

total 175 shooters for $437.50

The Summer Blast match draws shooters from all over the country. It is a Level III match, so we send USPSA $5.00 per shooter.

OPN 71 $355

LTD 91 $455

L10 49 $245

PROD 55 $275

REV 23 $115

SSD 7 $35

total 296 shooters for $1480

In my experience, L-10 & Production are equally popular for new shooters. We also have a dedicated group of L-10 & Production shooters among our more experienced shooters. I am seeing the biggest drop in the number of Open shooters at the local level. Large matches tend to have a disproportionately large percentage of Open shooters (compared to local matches) and are not a good barometer of the popularity of these divisions. The numbers on single stack are also too low, because new shooters want to get classified & many are shooting L-10 or Production (in equal numbers in my experience), until SSD becomes a 'real' division.

Anyone who shows up at the range to shoot safely and enjoy the competition is welcome in my opinion. How is the 'cost' to maintain these separate divisions different from maintaining 2 divisions (like when we had only Open & Limited)? I understand well the 'cost' of losing shooters to IDPA & ICORE & Steel Challenge, etc, if we keep jerking folks around with major changes every 3 or 4 years.

I've been playing with numbers for a LONG time in this sport and that argument does not wash for me.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

Edited February 22, 2007 by LChico

[hf219]

I understand well the 'cost' of losing shooters to IDPA & ICORE & Steel Challenge, etc, if we keep jerking folks around with major changes every 3 or 4 years.

I've been playing with numbers for a LONG time in this sport and that argument does not wash for me.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

Linda you nailed it with that statement!!!! It looks like alot of people are displeased with recent rule reinventions. It seems like they are trying to reinvent the wheel.

[SteveZ]

The numbers on single stack are also too low, because new shooters want to get classified & many are shooting L-10 or Production (in equal numbers in my experience), until SSD becomes a 'real' division.

I've been playing with numbers for a LONG time in this sport and that argument does not wash for me.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

Linda...is there any proof of this? I've heard GaryS and BruceG make the same comments but I'm wondering where they're getting data to back up this statement ...or has someone made the statement based on "gut feel" and repeated it enough times that others just repeat it also to the point that it becomes "the truth?"

In my neck of the woods, people aren't shooting SSD because a majority of the competition is shooting L10 and they want to shoot where everyone else is shooting...so they shoot L10 and not PSSD (on average, there is about one or two people shooting PSSD per club match). Any new shooter who is shooting Production to get classified, is probably going to stay in production...and not immediately switch over to PSSD once classified.

If the argument was true (about them being concerned that they wouldn't get a classification in PSSD...so they'll shoot L10 instead)...then once those shooters got classified, they'd switch to PSSD and start shooting that (if they were really truely interested in the division)...and that hasn't happened either.

I just think that before the BOD decides to officially adopt PSSD (and it sound like the original requirement of 8-10% now is meaningless because the BOD can vote it in at any time...even if the number is something closer to 3% nationally...which it seems to be the case based on club and large national matches) that they need to TRUELY address the popularity of the division...and not base their assumtions on a "gut feeling".

Insert your last sentence from above....here.

[Flexmoney]

Linda...great post.

Steve...I agree. I'm not convinced that the lack of classifiers getting counted is all that big of a factor. I'm sure it means something to many.

[zhunter]

It does to me. I am trying to get to "A" Class, but I am gong to continue to shoot SSD. I love it and want it to succeed.

The talk I hear is that people are waiting for the Classifiers to count and then will join in. Everyone I talk to is assuming it is going to happen, just a matter of when.

I just ordered a new gun 2 days ago specifically for SSD

[Nik Habicht]

Linda...great post.

Steve...I agree. I'm not convinced that the lack of classifiers getting counted is all that big of a factor. I'm sure it means something to many.

Hmmm, I've talked to a number of shooters in the past year who were excited by the concept of SS. They're not shooting it for lack of classifiers --- and for lack of competitors, which may have something to do with the fact that the Mid-Atlantic Section pays prizes at club matches....

I see it as a circular problem around here: No Classifiers --- No Competition --- No Shooters....

[Mick]

What will change on the classifiers other than carrying your highest overall rating?

Now you can earn one but it will still be no less than one below your highest...?

We get good numbers here in N TX for SS. I'm gonna go shoot classifiers when they enact the change but I'll get a predetermined rating...

[ihatepickles]

Linda,

Thanks for taking the time to post that info.

[Bear23]

Linda...great post.

Steve...I agree. I'm not convinced that the lack of classifiers getting counted is all that big of a factor. I'm sure it means something to many.

That's exactly why i don't shoot it. Makes no sense not to count the classifiers, even now. Clubs still pay the money for it.

[Chuck D]

"Anyone who shows up at the range to shoot safely and enjoy the competition is welcome in my opinion. How is the 'cost' to maintain these separate divisions different from maintaining 2 divisions (like when we had only Open & Limited)? I understand well the 'cost' of losing shooters to IDPA & ICORE & Steel Challenge, etc, if we keep jerking folks around with major changes every 3 or 4 years."

Bravo......

[LChico]

The numbers on single stack are also too low, because new shooters want to get classified & many are shooting L-10 or Production (in equal numbers in my experience), until SSD becomes a 'real' division.

I've been playing with numbers for a LONG time in this sport and that argument does not wash for me.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

Linda...is there any proof of this? I've heard GaryS and BruceG make the same comments but I'm wondering where they're getting data to back up this statement ...or has someone made the statement based on "gut feel" and repeated it enough times that others just repeat it also to the point that it becomes "the truth?"

Bruce Gary may be making that statement because, like me, he spends a great deal of time in stats. I am not basing ANY of this on a gut feeling. At SC State last year, I initially had 9 PSSD shooters. 4 switched to L-10 or Production when they saw the low turn-out in Single Stack. All 4 were classified A or B and SC is a cash-pay-back match. Checks are based on division size. The top shooters in both L-10 & Prod split $1650 in prize money for each division. Single Stack got a single award for $125.

At Summer Blast last year, I initially had 19 shooters in Single Stack. Just before the match, 7 switched to Prod or L-10. The one's who switched to production were 2 new shooters who were shooting minor. I have not checked back with most of them and hesitate to use names, but Jared L. was one of our staff & I know he won't mind me using his name. He shot L-10 unclassified rather than PSSD unclassified. He wanted Summer Blast's classifier stage to count toward his classification. That is specifically why he switched.

Locally, I have at least 8 shooters who plan to shoot PSSD once they are classified in anything else. 3 already do. I know Curtis M. & Lee K. of Charleston won't mind if I mention them by name (they both lurk on this forum). Both want to shoot Single Stack and have told me they will once the classifiers count.

I handle registration & squadding for 3 to 4 major matches a year, plus my local club stats. I get 24 to 30 email messages daily from USPSA shooters. I don't need to go by a 'gut' feeling because I hear from a large number of shooters. I respond quickly & personally to email and shooters share a lot of information with me.

FYI - I shoot a single stack Springfield .45 in Open Division, because I put a C-More on my gun. I happen to love that gun and have resisted numerous attempts to switch me to a wide-body gun. My 'gut' feeling is that I enjoy shooting & the company of shooters, and it doesn't matter if I'm not terribly competitive with my 'antique' race gun.

Many of my good friends are(were) dedicated L-10 shooters. JFD from this forum (who switched to LTD in frustration) Henry Swartout (ditto on the switch) and Larry Houck. I base my opinion on L-10 & PSSD on the numbers I see, the shooters I talk to & the email I get. Not sure what other proof I can offer.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC