Rather-B-Huntin Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 Got a question for you Open class gunners out there......... I primarily shoot Limited/L10, and often in Production. I've recently been courting the idea of breaking into Open, but have had a bear of a time deciding what gun to start with. Finances are playing a big part in helping me make the decision (I really can't afford much at this time). Recently, a shooting buddy who is being forced to cut way back on his shooting schedule has offered me what seems like a very sweet deal on his Open gun. The gun was built last year by a reputable gunsmith on a standard STI frame, STI slide, STI Trubor barrel, with STI internals. Total round count for this gun is currently around 300 (nearly new). He has invested a tad over $2,800.00 in the piece, and is willing to let it go with four STI 140mm mags for just $1,600.00. The only kicker to the deal as it would seem is that he built the gun in .40 S&W?? He advised he made that choice because he was already set up to load for .40 for his Limited gun and didn't want to have to switch caliber conversions on his Dillon SDB press. Now that you have the history, here is my question that I hope some of you hardcore Open class shooters can help me answer: Should I buy this gun to shoot in Open class? Am I putting too much of a restriction on my ability to be competitive with the lower magazine capacity of the .40 as opposed to the 9's and .38's??? With the low amount I'd have to pay for the gun, I could have a new slide/barrel/comp fitted in .38 for under $1k, leaving me with a total of around $2,500.00 in a custom built gun (still at least $1,000.00 under the asking price of most custom guns). My primary interest will remain in Limited/L10. When/if I go to a major match, one of those will be the class I will shoot in. SO, should I buy this gun, or pass it over and save another couple grand and just get a .38 from the get-go??? All info and input very much appreciated!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rather-B-Huntin Posted February 5, 2007 Author Share Posted February 5, 2007 I posted this question in the BEginners area before I found this one...... A buddy is offering me what seems to be a great deal on a nearly new Open gun chambered in .40. The gun was built last year by Canyon Creek Custom. My friend has a little over $2,800.00 invested, and is willing to sell for $1,600.00 The gun is STI through and through (standard frame, slide, trubor barrel, and internals), and also includes four 140mm mags. Total round count is around 300 (nearly new and not close to broken in yet). My question is: Should I take this seemingly great deal, or pass and save up for a gun in .38?? Am I putting too much limit on my ability to be competitive in Open class with this gun (I think the most rounds I can stuff in a .40 is 24 with a 170mm mag as opposed to 28 in a .38 big stick)?????? All input pro or con appreciated!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue edge Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 Bevin Gramms used to shoot open 40, but he switched to major 9. You might give him a try http://www.gramsengineering.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 I'm NOT an Open-head, but here's my take. IF, IF you already load .40 AND like the gun AND really want to shoot open without buying new components, dies etc, AND you are not worried about setting the world on fire, buy the gun. HOWEVER; know you are not getting the most you could out of your comp or mag capacity, and DO NOT use the gun as an excuse as to why you don't win the next open nationals. Supers (9's et al) shoot flatter and hold more. If you can live with that and like the gun, have at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 My friend has a little over $2,800.00 invested, and is willing to sell for $1,600.00 You have to ask yourself......Why would anyone build a gun, shoot 300 rounds through it and take a $1200 loss????Save another $1k and get either a 9 or a super. I spent a lot of time thinking about converting my limited gun to an open gun. I'm glad that I saved a little longer and bought a dedicated open gun. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 (edited) I had an open 40 STI = I did not shoot IPSC at the time I shot with a small club& did Steel Challenge and Team Challenge. It got stollen in a break in = I replaced it with a 38 super. I got over the loss real quick, the 38 super is a better round for open, even if you shoot the 40 with the 165 bullet. I shot a lot of 40 in revolver too, I like 40 but the 38 is better ...for me any way. I may not know nothing though. Edited February 5, 2007 by AlamoShooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 The first alarm to me is the $1200 desperity in the invested price of the gun and the sale price. Canyon Creek builds some sweet blasters, but again, why anyone would take a $1200 loss is beyond me. That said, there's nothing wrong with shooting Open with a .40. Especially like dirtypool40 said, if you're already loading .40 it's even better. A good friend does this and he started with a G35 for Limited and a used STI in .40 for Open. He loaded on a 650 and to get started "cheap" he just switched his seating die to a Redding Competition die and put a dial on his powder measure for the different loads between guns. He still shoots Open .40 but now just runs a dedicated toolhead for the Open loads vs. Limited loads. The two biggest disadvantages to shooting Open .40 is compensator efficiency and magazine capacity. The easier of the two to overcome is the compensator efficiency. You have a heavi(er) bullet and therefore a reduced need for velocity to make power factor. This velocity manifested in gas volume is what makes the comp work better. 155gr. bullets are pretty standard "light" bullets for the .40 and can be bought fairly cheap from a number of sources. There are 135's out there, but I don't know if they're jacketed. Play with some slow burning powders and run maybe a little larger compensator (say an EGW 7-port) or one of Bob Londrigan's Turbocomps and you'll be fine there. As for magazine capacity, while a hinderance, the way modern course design is, I don't see it as a big deal. There is almost always going to be movement in our stages and the ones that don't will be less than 20 rounds. The ones that do will always have a place to perform and complete a reload and odds are even the 9mm based pistols (9mm-.38 Super) will be performing that reload too. Some might say that slide cycle rate is slow...well, that's easy enough to fix. Call Canyon Creek or say our own Matt Cheely and have them cut some meat out of that slide. If it's got a bull barrel, maybe flute it to cut some weight down (if that's your preference). Just some food for thought. Big gains. A little more mass for thumping steel down and a little more diameter for catching the edge of the A-zone when you have a flyer. If the gun runs, I'd say go for it. It's a great way to get into open affordably and have fun with it. Maybe offer to pay for it to go to Canyon Creek for a check-up if there's a question as to its condition/reliability. Other than that, go for it. Does it come with mags? If so, even better. If not, make life simple get a bunch of big sticks and send them to Beven Grams for a tune up. Good luck. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 (edited) Tim, Welcome to the forum! Take a look at these threads: Click Me Click me too Click me also and there are others. BTW: I get 26 rounds of .40 in a STI 170 mm mag with Grams parts. Also, I have had good luck with Rainier 135 gr plated bullets. Later, Chuck PS: Check out the search function. It is hard to come up with a question that has not been covered over the years here. PPS: You only need to post a subject once since most people use "View New Posts" when checking for new stuff. Edited February 5, 2007 by ChuckS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 If your major matches are Limited your less serious open gun shouldnt matter. How often does the limited mag capacity really hurt ? You can fit 22 rounds in a STI mag. Besides you might pick up an "On the line hit that would be a miss with a 38. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 Tim, From someone that had shot a .40 in open for ~12 years. I never felt at a disadvantage and for the majority of that time I shot a .40 with only 17rd mags and one bigstick that held 24 rounds. Everybody that I have shot with always thought I was shooting a .38super. Gun shot flat and cycled just as fast as anybodies .38 super. There are 135 grain bullets available in either a plated or JHP design. Truth be told I seriously think about going back and shooting open using my .40. I did win a local match and have won my class at the section matches shooting .40. I have also placed in the top of my class at major matches that I did not win straight up. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rather-B-Huntin Posted February 5, 2007 Author Share Posted February 5, 2007 I posted this question in the BEginners area before I found this one......A buddy is offering me what seems to be a great deal on a nearly new Open gun chambered in .40. The gun was built last year by Canyon Creek Custom. My friend has a little over $2,800.00 invested, and is willing to sell for $1,600.00 The gun is STI through and through (standard frame, slide, trubor barrel, and internals), and also includes four 140mm mags. Total round count is around 300 (nearly new and not close to broken in yet). My question is: Should I take this seemingly great deal, or pass and save up for a gun in .38?? Am I putting too much limit on my ability to be competitive in Open class with this gun (I think the most rounds I can stuff in a .40 is 24 with a 170mm mag as opposed to 28 in a .38 big stick)?????? All input pro or con appreciated!! A couple of things I didn't mention that seem to have come up for debate about this situation: -- The gun has only 300 rounds thru it because the guy selling it has not had much opportunity to shoot since having the gun built due to familial constraints. Not because there is anything specifically wrong with the gun. He actually hates having to sell it, and is willing to take such a loss because he needs to move it quickly because of financial obligations. -- My main interest in shooting Open class is just to have something to tinker with. My main objective, and passion if you will, are Limited/L10, and Production, with Production being my "best" class. Open is just going to be an occasional "hobby" if you will. AND, to tell the total truth, I have no illusions of making it to the "Big Game" (area, nationals, etc.) in Open class, just want to play around with it locally, but still be able to be decently competitive. Therefore, cost to me is a BIG consideration, so I don't really want to pay nearly twice as much for something that will probably won't do half as much more for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al503 Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 I'm a cheap a$$ myself and the biggest negative would be the cost of bullets. .40's are close to $30/K more than 9/38 super. If you shoot in any volume, you might as well save up now and spend a lot less later, capacity, comp efficiency, etc., notwithstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 I shot OPEN for awhile in the late 90's with a SUPER. I didn't like the high cost of Super brass and the pressures we ran (at the old PF) so I went back to LTD.. I always wanted to shoot OPEN again more economically and thought major 9 would do it because I get 9mm brass free. The guns are just now working but at high pressure. I shot a SUPER SV IMM gun the other day and liked it....I then found an SV IMM gun in .40 and liked it really well albeit it has less mag capacity. I thought it ran well with 3N38 and 155s almost as well as 125s in Super cases in the same type of gun. Since my SUPER is old technology and needs a rebuild I may just go the .40 route since I can get .40 components much cheaper.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Tim,Welcome to the forum! Take a look at these threads: Click Me Click me too Click me also and there are others. BTW: I get 26 rounds of .40 in a STI 170 mm mag with Grams parts. Also, I have had good luck with Rainier 135 gr plated bullets. Later, Chuck PS: Check out the search function. It is hard to come up with a question that has not been covered over the years here. PPS: You only need to post a subject once since most people use "View New Posts" when checking for new stuff. I was in the same boat as you, limited funds when I started. I still shoot with a 40 and 2 things about the 40. First is bullet selection, there is not alot of light bulletsout there for the 40. I shoot 135Rainiers have no problem and my gun shoots flat. The second is mag capacity, I get 26+1 so your giving up 2-3rounds, 4 if a guy really knows how to tune mags. I placed in alot off big matches and alot of them I screwed up bad. In either case it wasn't the gun that had anything to do with it. If you watch closely you can find a good 38 for $2000 or under, used of course and you have to watch the classified constanstly. I would recommend that route first. Don't listen to all the people saying the 40 is a big disadvantage, its not. At most its a small disadvantage. All they are saying is why not for just alittle more money start off with a gun that you will eventually switch to anyway. I will switch eventually but right now switching to a different caliber won't improve my shooting. Its about the fundamentals and error free shooting. Flyin40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 40 bullets are about $30/1000 more expensive than Super. 40 brass is about $85/1000 cheaper than Super. If you're patient enough though, you can find a used Open gun with any make, caliber, barrel, style of comp and optic you want for less than $1600. Just have to wait and watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Just an opinion on reload pricing. I tend not to consider brass in the cost (unless it's an exotic caliber) as after, arguably, the second firing, you've paid for it or it's free. The upside to a .40 is a TON of people and LE departments shoot it and you can range whore it all over the place for free. Just something to consider. Bullets are bullets. Buy in bulk (like the 2-3k as a minimum order) and prices melt down big time. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Just an opinion on reload pricing. I tend not to consider brass in the cost (unless it's an exotic caliber) as after, arguably, the second firing, you've paid for it or it's free. The upside to a .40 is a TON of people and LE departments shoot it and you can range whore it all over the place for free.Just something to consider. Bullets are bullets. Buy in bulk (like the 2-3k as a minimum order) and prices melt down big time. Rich I paid $58 per 1k for 135grain bullets last yr, the price just went up to $63 per 1k. Flyin40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 So 1/2 cent per bullet? Ever order them in 5-10k lots? Just a suggestion since you're going to rip through that many in probably less than a year. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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