dirtypool40 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 I was out there with Z today, and I think we've eliminated everything but powder. You can SEE his crimp now, and I tried my major load through his chrono, and changing bullets made no difference, I don't know what other variables are left. I would like to see that load over someone else's chrono just to be sure. Things weren't that far off, but at this point I'd have to guess contaminated powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 You aren't using a Lee FCD are you? If so it might be on the tight side and swaging bullets a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markwilliston Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Okay I'll up it to $60 and I will cover shipping Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38superman Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Z, I've got five bucks that says your scales are giving you false readings. What kind of scales are you using? If they are digital they use a strain gauge to measure weight. Its very difficult to measure a charge that small with great accuracy. Most scales claim +/- 0.1 gr. but I suspect that the accuracy of the scale may diminish when working that close to the bottom of the scales range. Suppose the accuracy falls to +/- .2 That means a 4.0 reading could be anywhere from 3.8 to 4.2 in reality. Calibrate your scales with a known weight. If possible weigh a charge on two sets of scales and see if the readings agree. Tls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Tls, IIRC he is loading on a Dillon and this started with thrown charges. They should at least be consistant over the chrono, major or not......... Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted January 31, 2007 Author Share Posted January 31, 2007 tlshores I use an old style balance scale. It is VERY accurate, same one I used for years when doing some long range accuracy stuff The scale routinely made ammo to 1/4 MOA. I think it is not a scale issue. But thanks for the suggestion. I am open to all suggestions at this point regarding Clays. I JUST finished loading 10 rounds each of titegroup in: 4.4 4.5 4.6 4.7 4.8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Have you tried small rifle primers yet? SR primers virtually eliminated my ignition issues with 40 and U. Clays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted January 31, 2007 Author Share Posted January 31, 2007 (edited) Have you tried small rifle primers yet? SR primers virtually eliminated my ignition issues with 40 and U. Clays. Eric I am shooting .45, not .40. I am using CCI #300 Large Pistol Primers Edited to correct from Rifle to Pistol Primers. I think I nearly gave Merlin a heart attack!!! Edited January 31, 2007 by zhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Have you tried small rifle primers yet? SR primers virtually eliminated my ignition issues with 40 and U. Clays. Eric I am shooting .45, not .40. I am using CCI #300 Large Rifle Primers RIFLE PRIMERS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted January 31, 2007 Author Share Posted January 31, 2007 Have you tried small rifle primers yet? SR primers virtually eliminated my ignition issues with 40 and U. Clays. Eric I am shooting .45, not .40. I am using CCI #300 Large Rifle Primers RIFLE PRIMERS! Fixed the post, sorry. CCI # 300 Large PISTOL Primers!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 (edited) Have you tried small rifle primers yet? SR primers virtually eliminated my ignition issues with 40 and U. Clays. Eric I am shooting .45, not .40. I am using CCI #300 Large Rifle Primers Am I presumptuous or what? Just because I now have a SS 40, I think *all* the cool kids have one. I haven't messed with Clays in 45, but I do know that U. Clays was a disaster for me. The one powder I've actually had very good results with 45 is Win231. I know, it's supposed to be dirty, but doggonneit, the velocities are stable as a rock. You are going through the same problems I had trying to dial in my G21. For me it came down to a combination of a bore that seemed a bit on the high side of tolerance, bullets that were on the low-side of tolerance, and a powder that just did not ignite well in the 15 to 17 kpsi world where the 45 lives. Edited January 31, 2007 by EricW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted January 31, 2007 Author Share Posted January 31, 2007 EricW I thought of a possible barrel in-tolerance today, but then we, ( Dirtypool40 and myself) shot some VERY small groups at 20 yards. If it was a bad barrel, it would not be shootin' groups like that. I think DP shot about a 1" group at 20 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 I wonder if the rifle primers might end up causing their own brand of problems. LR primers are taller than LP. I tried it just for grins, but I definitely had issues making sure they were seated far enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted January 31, 2007 Author Share Posted January 31, 2007 I am committed to Large Pistol Primers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Oops.... Then I hope you and your pistol primers have a long, and prosperous relationship together then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revchuck Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 I haven't seen where you tried that WWB (though I'm just starting my first cuppa java and might have missed it). Sounds to me like you have a "slow" barrel, since you've eliminated just about everything else. Shooting your gun against a control gun that you know makes the PF with that load will tell. Dang, I hope you get this sorted out in time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted January 31, 2007 Author Share Posted January 31, 2007 I haven't seen where you tried that WWB (though I'm just starting my first cuppa java and might have missed it). Sounds to me like you have a "slow" barrel, since you've eliminated just about everything else. Shooting your gun against a control gun that you know makes the PF with that load will tell.Dang, I hope you get this sorted out in time! Rev I did shoot some WWB, and it was consistent and way over the 165 PF floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38superman Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 (edited) "I hate mysteries Doctor, they give me a belly ache and right now I have a beauty" - James T Kirk I have racked my brain trying to think of what is going on with this load and I just don't see it. The simple problem is that one specific load (that is well proven by others) gives inconsistent and low velocities in your gun. You seemed to have eliminated about every possible variable that could explain it. Its not the bullet, happens with Zero and MG. Its not the chrono, checked with known loads and proven accurate. Its not the powder charges, checked and double checked. Its not an issue with the gun, all other loads perform as expected. Have you tried your Clays loads in someone elses gun? If all else fails, abandon the Clays and use Titegroup. I know legions of Clays devotees will howl at such blasphemy, but I like Titegroup better anyway. Tls Edited January 31, 2007 by tlshores Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted January 31, 2007 Author Share Posted January 31, 2007 With any luck, I will chrono the Titegroup tomorrow. Results to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10mmdave Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 With mixed brass you could be getting different crimp tightness. Make sure you put a GOOD crimp on them. Had this happen once before. That is my next move so to speak. Edited to add: Crimp has been "fixed". Now waiting on new bullets to arrive, and yeah, for me to get back from London, it is a werk week Are you running mixed brass ?? I made up some loads with clays and W-W brass and Starline Brass, using the same powder charge I had a differnce of 8 PF between the 2, And this was new brass, not range/used stuff. Used a 230 Rainer bullet if that means anything. Good luck, maybe this has been mentioned but I didn't see it as I scanned the post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 could the CCI primer be the cause of the troubles? seems the federal primers i use are the most consistent over the chrono....but clays never did have really Low SD when it was time to chrono. Harmon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted February 1, 2007 Author Share Posted February 1, 2007 2-2-07 Range Report Yes indeed, there was happiness at the range today!!! I tested 5 different loads of Titegroup, EVERYTHING else stayed the same, i.e. Brass, mostly Federal, but some others mixed in. Bullets, Montana gold 230 grain JHP Primers, CCI #300 AOL 1.248 So, here are the results>>>> 4.4 Titegroup 718 741 718 690 777 * A flyer that I took out of the average and PF calculations 699 Avg. 712 = 163.80 PF ES 87 SD 31 4.5 Titegroup 724 706 727 716 727 716 Avg. 719 = 165.37 PF ES 21 SD 8 4.6 Titegroup 731 730 746 746 721 739 Avg. 735 = 169.05 PF 4.7 Titegroup 772 776 747 765 745 734 Avg. 756 = 173.88 PF ES 42 SD 16 4.8 Titegroup 797 788 796 782 761 760 Avg. 780 = 179.40 PF ES 37 SD 16 So, it looks like 4.6 of Titegroup is my load. Finally!!!! It seems either I had a bad 8 lb. container of Clays, or my gun just does not like clays. I will use it for steel loads, it CERTAINLY won't go to waste. I do have a new 1 lb. container of Clays coming, I will test that in the coming weeks after the Florida Open and report back. Thanks to all for your interest in my quest, suggestions, and support through this troubled time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Watch the TG and temp changes, I would load a LOT higher than 170 if there is a chance temps might drop at the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Looks like TG likes being loaded to a fairly "hot" level as the velocities look to have leveled out and show good consistency. At least now you won't be worrying about crap that has no bearing on your actual shooting..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted February 1, 2007 Author Share Posted February 1, 2007 Looks like TG likes being loaded to a fairly "hot" level as the velocities look to have leveled out and show good consistency. At least now you won't be worrying about crap that has no bearing on your actual shooting..... Exactly, now back where my mind belongs, gotta a date with a tall one tonight 6'2", 160 lb.s with less body fat than I have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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