Gun Blew Up... In Pieces... Looking For Reason

[ButchW]

My Winchester Model 70 30-06 is in pieces and looking for any info not to add any other guns to the scrap heap or this human being.

I am fine for those who would ask; a few minor face scratches.

I have a dillon 650 with powder check system and a spot light on the left side of press.

I used 27.1 grains Alliant 2400 powder Federal large rifle primers. Old military brass once fired then pockets swagged (spelling??). 180 Gr. Sierra soft point round nose bullets.

The gun was the older style Model 70 that can not be loaded as a single shot; bolt requires full travel to latch onto case. Gun had less that 100 rounds ever shot thru it.

I read in the forum about low case load under Gallery > Opps. 27 grains is about half the available space of the 30-06 case. And the way I was loading the cases on the bench would have put more powder toward the bullet side. (54 grains overflows but not by much. So I know the case was not 'doubled loaded' for sure.)

But then I read where someone has been using 13 grains in 30-06 for years which for sure is less than half the case inside space.

The gun split in half. I was holding the walnut stock, breach, and bolt in my right hand with elbow still resting on the shooting range "table" finger on the trigger and the 2 unshot cartidges were pushed out the bottom of the gun and laying on the "table." Scope and mounts landed 3 feet away over my right shoulder. The barrel ended up about 7 feet in front of me and to my right; still entact. The brass case is still in the barrel without the bottom that the bolt clamps onto.

The bullet killed my "custom $6 pvc tubing target holder". The bullet hit 6" left 12" high from target. The best I can tell the brass case still has a neck... more later on this I can't see it real well with just a flash light.

Thanks,

Butch

[Merlin Orr]

DAYMMNNN! Butch...I'm just glad you still have all your fingers and eyes!

[Viggen]

First of all 2400 is a Pistol Powder. You are lucky to be alive packing in that much.

Stay with a rifle powder and published loads with rifle if you want to live.

2400 can be used with specific loads and specific bullets. With the pressures that a rifle generates you have to pay attentions to loading manuals even more closely than for the pistol. As to the volume of and 06, it has nothing to do with what can be safely put in the case.

Please follow published loads.

I checked my Sierra manual and in this one there is NO pulished load for a 180 Sierra using 2400.

Sorry if the tone is a bit harsh but life is preferred.

[Guy Neill]

First, check your load data. Were you using the right amount of powder?

Check the charge weights on any remaining rounds loaded at teh same time. Be certain they match the recommended load. The blow-up sounds like a double charge. Even though you state a double charge would not fit in the case, an excessive charge would (say a 1½ times charge).

Was the powder you were using actually the right powder? Powder mistakes have occurred, and can result in detstroying guns, and hurting people.

Was the primer still in hte casing in the barrel? If so, how did it look?

Examine the cracked parts. Is there any evidence of a pre-existing crack?

Guy

[GentlemanJim]

Dear Lucky to be alive!

The only time I have seen such a destructive event it was caused by a barrel obstruction.

I am real happy you are ok!!!!!

[ButchW]

This was the 8th cartidge I fired. All the remaining cartidges weight within a few grains of each other. Nothing says there was excessive powder in any of them.

In the Alliant Powder PDF file is where I got that max load was 28.2 grains for a 180 Grain Spitzer. My old Speer book lists very few powders.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/Rec...mp;bulletid=259

I normally load 9 mm and I never noticed, other than FPS values, powder differences between plated, hollow points, FMJ, lead type bullets for the same grain bullet weight.

To God be the glory and the thanks.

Butch

[raz-0]

Well, i'm surprised as heck, but alliant does list 2400 fro a 180gr spitzer, and it is 28.2

They list a lower velocity than he other laods, and a higher pressure than the rest for it though.

Which sounds ot me like it is pushing it. They don't list 2400 or reloader 7 for the nosler 180gr partition, so i suspect the pressure curves are close to the edge, and that bullet geometry may indeed be enough to make it less than safe.

I don't know what 2400 looks like, but if it is a powder that is prone to shear or go crunch a lot, you might have thrown a charge where you got more than you sexpected because of all the dust, or anything hanging up in the drop tube, or something along those lines.

Given it is a pistol powder being pushed in a rifle, you don't need a double charge for bad things to happen.

[dillon]

First, glad you are still intact. Blowing up a rifle is too much excitement!

A distinct possibility for the cause of this explosion could be the use of military cases. Military cases are somewhat thicker than commercial brass, with a resultant decrease in volume. Traditional wisdom is if the load data being used was developed using commercial brass, then reduce the powder charge by 10%. With the fast burning rate ( for a rifle) of 2400, this would set the maximum powder charge at 25.4 grains. Therefore, your charge of 27.1 grains could be an overload. The pressures for 2400 increase much faster at the higher end of the load spectrum, so a small percentage of overload could achieve catastrophic pressures.

The Dillon powder measure should meter 2400 to within +/- .1-.2 grains. 2400 is a small flake powder which meters well. The powder check will indicate an error of +/- two or three grains. I suspect a combination of a very fast rifle powder, smaller volume than expected for the brass could cause the blowup.

Guy, could you elaborate on this more?

[Guy Neill]

2400 does meter well, which is what led me to advise looking at the remaining charge weights. A wrong charge adjustment should be ruled out.

The fast powders will react with greater sensitivity to seemingly small changes.

Another factor that may be affecting things here is the bullet. I note it is a round nose. Depending on the barrel throat, it may have been in contact with the rifling. This can substantially increase pressure. Combined with the fast powder, possible reduced case volume (military brass), the bullet contacting the rifling could prove the final straw.

Other factors that could come into play include teh neck wall thickness. If there had been any brass flow to increase the neck wall thickness, it could mean there was not sufficient clearance to allow normal release of the bullet.

Also, with air space in the case, it is possible the powder was all against the bullet. When the primer ignited the powder, the forward portion could act as a plug, resulting in escalated pressures.

Stepping back a moment, I had the impression, from the description, that the barrel was intact, compared to the action. If the barrel chambe ris, in fact, intact, it may not indicate a severe pressure excursion. This was the basis for my question on examining hte cracked areas for the possibility of a pre-existing crack that simply let go on that particular shot, even if that shot was giving normal pressure.

Many questions remain, and not being able to examine the remains limits the ability to assess the cause.

Guy

[ButchW]

I picked 2400 because it was on the 30 carbine & 30-06 scale.

I am kinda recapping all...

Alliant's spec on 30-06 and 2400 is probably not a good idea.

Miltary Brass should be reduced by 10% load. (I never heard this till today. Some reference to "compressed loads" once upon a time; which I never ever use so don't remember the references. )

But isn't too little powder dangerous too?? (I am assuming all the bullets do leave the barrel.) I thought that is why most reloading manuals quote min / max values. Most scales min to max is about 10% and most reloaders at least with pistol say the most accurate is usually 2/3 between; that was really 27.3 but the powder die liked 27.1.

My shooting is paper, preferable 300+ yards with high power rifle and a good scope which I don't own yet. (Actually don't own the high power rifle either now.)

I had plans to buy new yugo. surplus 150 grain bullets. Or surplus 147 grain boat tails pulls. Or Berry's 30/30 plated?? So where do I go from here? i.e. 300+ yards, 2" pattern and the above?

Or ebay the 1200 cases / reloading stuff and 1000 misc. bullets from 110 spire to 200 grain spitzers?

Butch

[ButchW]

Was the primer still in hte casing in the barrel? If so, how did it look?

Examine the cracked parts. Is there any evidence of a pre-existing crack?

The bottom of the case and primer are in never never land.

The chamber can apart in 4 pieces. The large piece (top) with one scope mount shows one good for sure clean break. The back edge (1/4") has some discoloration (brown) but that might be where the powder blast had to go during "blow up". This area would have been behind the bolt by about 1" when cocked. 2 really small pieces one on the right hand side roughly 1/2" by 1" is gone. and a small sliver on the left is missing. I am guessing that is the 1/4" cut on my left check.

I can't tell that any cracks were present.

In the for what it is worth department... the bolt will not come out because the chamber has a slightly right hand bend.

Alliant asked for some loaded ammo so I send #9-20 to them. They say it was within thier tolerances but want to shot and check for sure.

Thanks to all and to God,

Butch

[Lee Bell]

First of all 2400 is a Pistol Powder. You are lucky to be alive packing in that much.

Stay with a rifle powder and published loads with rifle if you want to live.

2400 can be used with specific loads and specific bullets. With the pressures that a rifle generates you have to pay attentions to loading manuals even more closely than for the pistol. As to the volume of and 06, it has nothing to do with what can be safely put in the case.

Please follow published loads.

I checked my Sierra manual and in this one there is NO pulished load for a 180 Sierra using 2400.

Sorry if the tone is a bit harsh but life is preferred.

I checked my Speer and Lyman manuals and neither has a load for the 30-06 using 2400. I could have sworn I checked the Alliant website as well, but when I looked just a minute ago, there was, in fact, a 30-06 load recommendation for a maximum charge of 28.2 grains of 2400.

Like others, I'm very glad that all that was lost was the rifle. I can only thing of four things that might have caused the problem:

1. Alliant blew it with their recommendation.

2. There was a barrel obstruction.

3. The actual charge was larger than anticipated, but not large enough to be visible in a bottle necked cartridge.

4. Somehow the bullet was seated deeper than intended, set back during recoil, or was more heavily crimped than it should have been, increasing already high pressure to the breaking point of the gun.

Lee

Edited January 3, 2007 by Lee Bell

[ButchW]

Like others, I'm very glad that all that was lost was the rifle. I can only thing of four things that might have caused the problem:

1. Alliant blew it with their recommendation.

2. There was a barrel obstruction.

3. The actual charge was larger than anticipated, but not large enough to be visible in a bottle necked cartridge.

4. Somehow the bullet was seated deeper than intended, set back during recoil, or was more heavily crimped than it should have been, increasing already high pressure to the breaking point of the gun.

Lee

1. I think I agree. It will be interesting what Alliant tests show.

I loaded my last 1/3 pound of either IMR 4064 or 4227 powder before I switched to 2400. I shot 3 of those last night before the 7 2400's that didn't blow up.

2. All bullets including the last one hit the paper target. Was not barrel obstruction.

3. Could have been, but on my press I have noticed usually on spot checks the vibration or just the power measure decreased my loads over time by about .1 grain.

4. All the bullets have a "calvet" (spelling??) The bullets are tight. By the time they come thru to the bullet station I have to hold the bullet until the last inch or so to get into the seating / crimp die because there is not any flare on the end. The thicknest of the bullet against the case wall is the only crimp. There is a small area right next to the neck (1/8' - 3/16") that is not sized and the bullet is not tight about .003" clearance between on both sides. I didn't like that but figured later to buy Dillon dies or full seat dies vs. the RCBS one I have there now.

In a perfect 30-06 load can you push the bullet down? or pull it out without a pair of vise-grips? I don't have any high end pullers but the kinetic one I have will not work.

These bullets are about the tightness of my 9mm lead loads.

Thanks,

Butch

[rishii]

butch

glad you're ok

a buddy blew up his 03 springfield in a similar manner. except for some shrapnel that bounced off his thick skull he's ok

I swiped a couple of rounds of his ammo and found he had loaded 54 grns of tightgroup instead of W748 by mistake. any chance you had a can of powder that looked similar to 2400 near your bench.

[Viggen]

First of all 2400 is a Pistol Powder. You are lucky to be alive packing in that much.

Stay with a rifle powder and published loads with rifle if you want to live.

2400 can be used with specific loads and specific bullets. With the pressures that a rifle generates you have to pay attentions to loading manuals even more closely than for the pistol. As to the volume of and 06, it has nothing to do with what can be safely put in the case.

Please follow published loads.

I checked my Sierra manual and in this one there is NO pulished load for a 180 Sierra using 2400.

Sorry if the tone is a bit harsh but life is preferred.

I checked my Speer and Lyman manuals and neither has a load for the 30-06 using 2400. I could have sworn I checked the Alliant website as well, but when I looked just a minute ago, there was, in fact, a 30-06 load recommendation for a maximum charge of 28.2 grains of 2400.

Like others, I'm very glad that all that was lost was the rifle. I can only thing of four things that might have caused the problem:

1. Alliant blew it with their recommendation.

2. There was a barrel obstruction.

3. The actual charge was larger than anticipated, but not large enough to be visible in a bottle necked cartridge.

4. Somehow the bullet was seated deeper than intended, set back during recoil, or was more heavily crimped than it should have been, increasing already high pressure to the breaking point of the gun.

Lee

Alliant shows 28.2 as max for a 180 Sierra Spitzetr but I could not find anything for a 180 Sierra RN.

Is the nose shape that important, I don't know.

And what Dillon said about volume in military cases may very well be critical, and a good reminder to us all.

Bottom line, I am glad there was no injury.

[ButchW]

any chance you had a can of powder that looked similar to 2400 near your bench.

I have been going through setting up the Dillon press for each caliber in an attempt to use up all the old bullets / powder and such from my Father's estate. Once all is done I have 600 lbs of dies, presses, tools, lead shot, bullets & brass to Ebay.

There is no chance I used any other powder. All my powder & primers are located in a separate place. I bring them to the work bench as needed just for the reason you describe above. (I put small pistol primers in for small rifle once; that is why the system and I watched my Father do the same thing once too with pistol powder.)

Even though I have 2 quick changes. I plan to run 1000's at a tiime. I had just swagged (spelling??) all the military brass and was loading all through with all my old bullets. The 180 grain about 170 of them was going to be kept for any live animals I might need to kill.

I also only have 3 - 4lb containers too. One Unique not opened, one bulleye and the 2400. I went and checked just in case 2400 is a lot darker than bulleye. I still have half a power measure of 2400 in place. I loaded 30 carbine then poured it all out for the large powder bar change out. Loaded 1/3 lbs of 4227 or 4064 and used it all up. Then poured the 2400 from the spare container back into the power measure.

Thanks for asking.

Butch

[ButchW]

Asked about powder so I looked at the bullets too. All the bullets are the same size and shape. In my collection the only other round nose are FMJ or 150's with no clavet (spelling??).

Butch

[raz-0]

Asked about powder so I looked at the bullets too. All the bullets are the same size and shape. In my collection the only other round nose are FMJ or 150's with no clavet (spelling??).

Butch

Do you mean cannelure? The kind of serrated crimp around the bullet that the case mouth is supposed to anchor into?

It might have something to do with it. The spitzer and round nose with cannelure are very different bullet profiles, at least from looking at the picks at midwayusa. The spitzer you can load out farther to give case room. I don't know if/how much cannelures can affect sizing, as i haven't really used any bullets with them present, so i'll let other people chime in who know more.

Is the bleow waht you were loading?

round nose

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...leitemid=589828

and this is what the laod data was for.

spitzer

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...leitemid=360761

just for info, the other 180gr bullet listed there that don't have 2400 loads

either

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...leitemid=212511

or

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...leitemid=627066

oops there's also the winchester fail safe, but i can't find a good picture, midway doesn't ahve them. Pretty much looks similar in profile to the nosler 180gr spitzer.

[ButchW]

Do you mean cannelure? The kind of serrated crimp around the bullet that the case mouth is supposed to anchor into?

Is the bleow waht you were loading?

round nose

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...leitemid=589828

Yes "cannelure".

That is the picture. Mine aren't as shinny. The bullet seated on the cannelure in the 06 case puts the base just barely below the neck of the 30-06 case.

Others need to chime in on this... I thought that is the definition for loading all bullets that don't have cannelures should you NOT have an exact "case length" given from the bullet manufacturer on necked brass. I think the idea is the "wave of explosion" hits the bottom of the bullet before the neck and once the bullet starts moving ..... path of lease resistance past that point.

Butch

[Chills1994]

This was powder and other reloading components left over from your father's estate, right?

Could it be that the canister says 2400, but at some point your father just had an empty 2400 jug laying around and for whatever reason he poured some other kind of powder into it, and then didn't re-label the container?

Or could the powder just have gone bad over time?

I don't know how well powder ages, but one would think that if a powder was going bad it would just fizzle instead of going BANG, or worse yet go KABOOM inside the gun.

Take a whiff of the powder, what's it smell like?

Is there a date written on the container?

I always use a marker to write the purchase date on the powder can. A silver sharpie is good for the black plastic containers everyone is using now for their powders.

Let me be the first to say that this post is useless without pics.

Do you have a digital camera Butch?

[hitman]

Glad you are ok.

Been there done that and its not fun.

Sounds like a powder issue to me.

Do you have any photos of the rifle that would help as it could have been due to a weak case & tight bullet but I would say powder first.

[ButchW]

This was powder and other reloading components left over from your father's estate, right?

Could it be that the canister says 2400, but at some point your father just had an empty 2400 jug laying around and for whatever reason he poured some other kind of powder into it, and then didn't re-label the container?

Let me be the first to say that this post is useless without pics.

Do you have a digital camera Butch?

My 30-06 mil. brass was from Ebay & my father's estate. Mixed together then I manually punched out the primers and swagged the pockets in my father's Lee press. All the 2 hole berdan hit the "brass file 13 bag."

I put them in cleaner and soaked most of the dullness off of them. And to make sure any corrosive was dead.

The Federal Primers and 2400 was bought in Oct. 2006. I had already disposed of my old 2400 & dad's old large rifle primers and the IMR 4064 or 4227. The last of that power is in 30 cartidges upstairs right now with new primers. Already shot 50 of them previously. 3 the night of the explosion.

I plan to take pictures later tonight for Alliant and will post them on my web site somewhere.

here will be the link to the link http://www.iscnetwork.com/bfsc/bw.html

Any CHEMISTRY EXPERTS??... old miltary brass might have copper oxide in them more so than commercial.

Thanks,

Butch

[Patrick Sweeney]

No, but if it was really old it may have been originally loaded with mercuric primers. Those make brass brittle, and no amount of cleaning nor inspection will sort the bad ones from the rest.

What were the headstamps? Also, did you trim them? Overly long brass can wedge in the leade and spike pressures.

[ButchW]

No, but if it was really old it may have been originally loaded with mercuric primers. Those make brass brittle, and no amount of cleaning nor inspection will sort the bad ones from the rest.

What were the headstamps? Also, did you trim them? Overly long brass can wedge in the leade and spike pressures.

I checked a few for proper length; didn't find any expanded. Most of the brass was once fired some 0 fired cause I punched out the bubble primers and broke 5 pins doing them. (the person who created the 2 hole berdans should be shot with them. )

Headstamps are all over the place... 43 -79 on the hand full still loaded or shot the night of my explosion.

My original plans was to load up all the miltary and scrap any that had bad primer pockets. Keep softpoints loaded in them the 3rd go round for any living things I might need to shot. And plink with the rest of them. I have 400 new brass & 600 commercial once fired upstairs for my 300+ yard paper killing.

MYTH DEFUNK... all powder after the first shot is generally next to the bullet. So most if not all primers detonate into air pockets. This is due to the recoil of the first shot; especially in canons like the '06.

Butch

[ButchW]

Pictures (1st batch) are up...

http://www.iscnetwork.com/bfsc/bw.html

Probably tomorrow for more.

Butch