Gun Blew Up... In Pieces... Looking For Reason

[Guy Neill]

But working the action can leave the powder next to the primer. You cannot assume any particular position for the powder unless you elevate or depress the muzzle just prior to firing.

Guy

[Stumpnav]

Is there any chance an odd 303 or 8mm bullet got mixed in?

[ButchW]

Is there any chance an odd 303 or 8mm bullet got mixed in?

There could be that chance but probably real slim. I never owned 8 mm or 303. I inspect all the cartidges after reloading next to one another. I find that is real easy to spot a bullet too long or not seated properly. Then I inspect them individually before I put them in the plastic 20 round containers that go in the pouch bag.

But you have some good ideas.

I just bought a Rem 700 and am looking at several high power cheap scopes for it.

I know before I reloading again 30-06 I plan to do some of my 9mm tricks and shoot matching headstamps, weight the cartidges and the bullets; just to make sure nothing is too far off. And the case gauge or caliper too; even though I have only once fired or virgin cases right now. I figure the dillon 650 and power check system should keep me away from major other issues. (I always periodically dump a cartidge on the scale to make sure things haven't edged up. So far my Dillon has tendencies to go down about .1 grains during a run of a few hundreds.

I also bought some powder new powder. The local had Hodgdon Varget that looked promising.

150 GR. NOS BT --- VARGET 51.0 2975 50,100 CUP

It also is lot lower pressure then the specs on 2400 are. I also bought some military 147 grain boat tails and cleaned out the damaged ones. The BT should not be as tight as the 180's were and load easier to place on the non-expanded 30-06 case mouths.

I plan to post more just had way too much business to devote time to hobby.

Butch

[ButchW]

I send cartidges off to Alliant and they tested all under 59,000. Alliant said the problem is at 63,500.

But 2 different sources now say Military brass loads should be reduced 10% from the reloading data, Dillon & Hodgdon.

Probably never going to know what failed or combinations of what failed.

[wsimpso1]

ButchW,

WOW! Glad to hear that your are OK.

My first job out of college was with Remington Arms in Ilion NY and later in Bridgeport CT. Yeah, doing product engineering on guns and ammo. Damn nearly ruined an excellent hobby too. I have used up about 45 little boxes of primers and match bullets shooting the M1 in High Power too, so I know a little about the .30-'06.

Among other things, we did blow up tests with our and competitive rifles. One that was most memorable was a post '64 Win M70. It was 1981. Nobody went around blowing up valuable collector firearms that had been out of production for 17 years. With a couple bullets hammered into the breach end of the bore, and a regular round fired behind it... The front reciever ring broke, the barrel went downrange, the fore-end was broken up. We caught the whole thing on high speed film camera. The barrel looked OK until you mic'd it. The breech end of the barrel was now bigger than it was before it was fired. The case stayed in one piece, expanded with the chamber, and came out of the chamber. I forget what pressures were reached, but it was way up there. The modern M70's support the case pretty well, so they do not tend to blow out when pressures are really high.

Your rifle looks pretty similar. The pre '64 M70's had less of the case head supported, so the case could blow out more easily, freeing the case head to come off and limit the pressures a bit, but it still got high enough to swell the barrel and break the forward ring.

You had some mighty big pressures, but how I can only guess. Best bet is that the powder charge was high. You don't need a double to blow a rifle. 125% will probably do just fine. Maybe even less. My guess is that 27 g of 2400 in Arsenal brass is probably pretty close to 28 g in civilian brass, and both are about as hot as anyone should ever take this stuff in an '06. Anyway, if you only got a partial load out of the meter on one throw, and the next throw got a full one, plus the partial load that was stuck in the funnel of your meter, well, that will put you firmly into blow up range. And you can easily get 45 g in an '06 round. The other major guess has already been made - it is not 2400 in that can. Personally, I would fertilize some flowers with the remaining 2400. Powder is cheap, guns are pricey, and eyes are irreplaceable.

Some other comments. What kind of cleaner did you clean those old cases with? Nothing that has ammonia in it should ever go near cases that you will ever load again. Hoppe's No9 has ammonia, as do just about all bore cleaners. So does urine, glass wax and window cleaners, and many household style brass cleaners. Ammonia causes stress corrosion cracks in strain hardened copper based alloys. The British Army learned about this during the Boer War. Horses and wooden ammo crates in the holds of ships. Everything from pistols to rifles to machinguns to artillery pieces blowing up. The cases split, which is a longitudenal split through the case head, just like you see in a log before splitting it. So, those cases that spent time in cleaner, was that something that might have ammonia in it? Scrap brass if it was...

Powder does not usually go KABOOM when it goes bad, but instead looses its poop. If it smells acid or sharp, bad, if it smells like ethanol and acetone, good. If it looks dusty red or brown, bad. If a powder has gone off, it is still great fertilizer for the flowers.

There are only two basic ways that the powder could be faster than the it is supposed to be: It has been broken down into a finer powder by some mechanical means; it is not what the label says.

My thoughts. With jacketed bullets, use 4895, RL15, etc in .30-'06 Springfield. The cases are then full enough to see haigh and low charges. Charge powder in to a tray of shells, look at them for high and low charges. Load on the soft side. Its OK, the deer can not tell the difference between a 180 grainer at 2500 ft/sec from one at 2700 ft/sec.

Geez, and be careful.

Billski

[ButchW]

You had some mighty big pressures, but how I can only guess. Best bet is that the powder charge was high. You don't need a double to blow a rifle. 125% will probably do just fine. Maybe even less. My guess is that 27 g of 2400 in Arsenal brass is probably pretty close to 28 g in civilian brass, and both are about as hot as anyone should ever take this stuff in an '06. Anyway, if you only got a partial load out of the meter on one throw, and the next throw got a full one, plus the partial load that was stuck in the funnel of your meter, well, that will put you firmly into blow up range. And you can easily get 45 g in an '06 round. The other major guess has already been made - it is not 2400 in that can. Personally, I would fertilize some flowers with the remaining 2400. Powder is cheap, guns are pricey, and eyes are irreplaceable.

Some other comments. What kind of cleaner did you clean those old cases with? Nothing that has ammonia in it should ever go near cases that you will ever load again. Hoppe's No9 has ammonia, as do just about all bore cleaners. So does urine, glass wax and window cleaners, and many household style brass cleaners. Ammonia causes stress corrosion cracks in strain hardened copper based alloys. The British Army learned about this during the Boer War. Horses and wooden ammo crates in the holds of ships. Everything from pistols to rifles to machinguns to artillery pieces blowing up. The cases split, which is a longitudenal split through the case head, just like you see in a log before splitting it. So, those cases that spent time in cleaner, was that something that might have ammonia in it? Scrap brass if it was...

My thoughts. With jacketed bullets, use 4895, RL15, etc in .30-'06 Springfield. The cases are then full enough to see haigh and low charges. Charge powder in to a tray of shells, look at them for high and low charges. Load on the soft side. Its OK, the deer can not tell the difference between a 180 grainer at 2500 ft/sec from one at 2700 ft/sec.

The 27 grains is probably fairly hot (after the fact). But Alliant only got to 59000 on any round that I sent them. In the loading scheme this was #8 and 9-20 went to Alliant. I shot 1-7.

I have a Dillon 650 powder check system and in previous posts Dillon said that would be good to about 2 grains on 2400.

The seventh bullet hit in with the other 6.

Alliant also tested the powder to make sure it wasn't bulleye or something else. (Bulleye is the only powder even close to the same look as 2400 I have open.) And power was 04/2006 production. They checked to for other contaminates. NONE.

This batch of brass was put in Iossa (spelling) cleaner first to get rid of the years of grime. (Basically phosphoric acid & soap).

Then put in walnut shells / corn cob mix that had little or no polish. Now it would have copper & lead contamination from other previous bullets or casings.

Best I can figure is a whole bunch of little things went wrong.

Hot load due to military brass.

Really tight bullets since the press doesn't flare 30-06 necks. The bullet is pushed into the mouth and the case fits is like a "too small glove." The 180 being a flat bottom only amplifies the conditon.

Old rifle maybe weaker metal.

Weird weather conditions. Late at night frost starting to fall. Gun warm; air 32 degrees.

---------------------

I am retiring the 2400 back to 30 carbine (a few hundred shoot from this batch) & maybe 357 later.

I bought 1lb. of Varget at the local place which the guy at powderinc.com recommended. On hodgdon.com said starting is 47 grains minus 10% gives me about 42.3. I figure aim for 42.5 and see where the powder measure falls roughly for my next 114 147gr. FMJBT cartidges. (anyone have a good load please chime in) Then look back a alliant 15 or 17 or something else.

I would load 1500 fps if I could be safe from the "under charge" problems. I only shoot paper at 50-500 yards. (The 180's were just to keep around for 4 legged animals should I or my brother ever need to kill any at his ski home.)

I looked down the barrel tonight and rifling looks good as far as I can tell. The brass casing is stuck well. I can't see where barrel ends and case begins.

[ButchW]

Since all the brass was military and swagged (sp.??) or reamed what if...

The primer pocket had let go due to too thin of walls?

Would the gun blow up or just spit gas out the back through the vent in the bolt?

Butch

[wsimpso1]

Make no mistake about it - Your gun made BIG pressure, with the evidence being the broken forward ring. Big pressure happens when something is big time wrong.

If the case was weakened and failed at nominal pressures, brass particles and propellant gases would have come streaming out of the case, and found their way out of the action via whatever path was easiest. Then you would open the bolt and the empty case most likely would come right out of the chamber. This is because the failed case is an extra way for gases to get out of the gun, so pressures can only get as high as normal, and usually a lot less, when the case fails. Usually the case has to have good integrity to blow the barrel off of the reciever.

Herr Mauser put holes for gas to leave his designs and most of his the copiers wisely kept those holes. So those systems do tend to hold up OK when a case splits and dumps gas into the action...

Some guns (M16's come to mind) don't have easy paths out of the gun for all of that powder gas. Head seperations and case splits can wreck a reciever, and usually the bolt carrier too. In most M16 blowups, the bolt is still in the barrel extension, the barrel nut is still tight on the nose of the upper reciever, with both of them still firmly clamped around the barrel extension.

Swaging the primer pocket should not have substantially weakened the case either.

No, my guess is way too much powder, powder not as advertised, obstructed bore, etc.

Hmmm, on the topic of obstructed bore, were all of the cases whole after firing? A seperated neck from a previous case might have remained in the bore. Another one is a squib load leaving a round just down the bore. Holes in the paper don't mean that they went downrange individually. At Ilion, the obstructions as well as the last round usually went through the target.

Anyway, suspect the amount of powder in each case, the powder, a bore obstruction, and then remember that for future work...

Billski

[ButchW]

No, my guess is way too much powder, powder not as advertised, obstructed bore, etc.

Hmmm, on the topic of obstructed bore, were all of the cases whole after firing? A seperated neck from a previous case might have remained in the bore. Another one is a squib load leaving a round just down the bore. Holes in the paper don't mean that they went downrange individually. At Ilion, the obstructions as well as the last round usually went through the target.

Anyway, suspect the amount of powder in each case, the powder, a bore obstruction, and then remember that for future work...

Billski

All bullets hit the target and made nice .3 inch holes. Except the last one which hit my PVC homemade target stand about 13" off of aim. (So basically the gun was coming apart before the bullet left the barrel or that could have been a fragment of something else that destroyed my PVC target holder. If it was a fragment probably a walnut chuck. I think both sides of the chamber blew out at 90 degree angles. All the cases are fine but the primer end of the one that blew up is missing. I figure the bolt held it long enough before momentum carried it away. The rest of that case is still in the barrel.

I just asked about the reaming or swagged cases just in case. Not know what happened is the worst part of the accident.

I know for sure no barrel obstruction. I have been shooting up all my father's 5+ years old ammo for weeks before the accident. If it didn't kick or spit out the case I was running a cleaning rod down the barrel to make sure no bullet stuck in there. I remember specifically the 7th shot kicked exactly like I expected. One of the first things through my mind after the accident when I was picking up pieces was "did the previous bullet kick".

Everything does generally point to powder of there was a whole lot of minor problems that all added up to one big one. Thankful to God I wasn't hurt.

I am shipping Alliant the gun tomorrow probably will never hear about it again from them.

Thanks Butch.

Edited January 31, 2007 by ButchW

[ButchW]

Correction...

Where I get most of my powder is www.powdervalleyinc.com