Clays Not Making Major

[chunger]

My barrel is a bit slow, and my clays test loads are not making power factor.. . I'm wondering what to do.

Kart 5" barrel

Zero 230 grain JHP

OAL 1.2275"

Crimp 1.471"

Winchester large pistol primer

4.0 Grains Clays = 697.2 fps 160.35 PF

3.9 Grains Clays = 685.8 fps 157.73 PF

3.8 Grains Clays = 663.8 fps 152.67 PF

4 grains of clays is what all the manuals say is max load. I'm not seeing signs of excessive pressure, but I'm new to this reloading thing. I know going beyond recommended maximum load is at your own risk. . . should I abandon the Clays for this gun? Or should I try to bump it to 4.1 grains?

I was able to work up to 781 fps w/ 4.8 grains of titegroup. Haven't shot for groups yet with any of the loads. Just testing to see which ones are viable.

Edited November 28, 2006 by chunger

[Joe D]

First of all have you tried another chrono? 4.0 gr easily makes Major in my Kimber. I get 728-734 fps. I do use a 230 gr RN plated bullet at 1.260". Are you getting any pressure signs? I use 4.2 gr with a 200 gr LSWC to make Major.

I was able to make major with 4.2 gr of Titegroup and the same 230 bullet.

[chunger]

Hi Joe D,

I'm suspecting slow barrel. . . it's Kevin C's chrono. . . he's not reported discrepencies with his loads on this chrono. My 9mm Springfield also chronoed almost right at theoretical with this machine. I'm consistantly getting 35-37 fps slower than theoretical on this particular new Kart barrel w/ clays and titegroup.

My starting load at 4.5 grains of titegroup under a 230 grain Zero JHP through my barrel yielded.

724 .3 FPS 166.6 PF

I did not load under 4.5 grains as my manual said 4.4 grains is the minimum charge.

Edited November 28, 2006 by chunger

[yoshidaex]

Chunger,

What was the ambient temps when you tested your rounds? On a cold day, my 4.2 clays load with 230 plated bullets gets me about a 167 PF. Though on a hot day it does get to 171 PF. Browse thru here. You'll notice quite a few people load up to 4.2 clays. I've been using this load for over 10k rounds and it works all the time and no pressure signs.

Edited November 28, 2006 by yoshidaex

[HSMITH]

IIRC the early manuals listed up to 4.7 clays with a 230 FMJ, and I know I still have a Lee manual around here that lists 4.7. I shot thousands of 230 FMJ at 4.7 through a Para, a Commander, and a 5" single stack. They felt just like Hydrashocks, and that was what I was after. I never ran them across a chrono.

Kart barrels are pretty darn smooth and it probably won't get much if any faster as you shoot it but the chance is always there. I would put several hundred rounds through it without cleaning and check again.

If you aren't using Winchester primers try them or a magnum primer, they will bring the velocity up a tad.

Based on my experience I wouldn't have any qualms at all about increasing the charge to make major. DO go slow and carefully though if you increase charges.

[chunger]

Chunger,

What was the ambient temps when you tested your rounds?

I didn't measure, but I suspect temps were in the low 70's. . . pretty temperate. I did see that many folks are bumping the clays up a bit. I'll carefully load up a hair and chrono again.

[Dan Sierpina]

My old load with Clays was 4.4 with a 230 FMJ. That made major with the old power factor, with room to spare. Now, it's 4.1, still no problem. The old load was used by Robbie, Burner and other top shooters when Limited first started in the early 90's when everyone just used their old single stacks with long mags.

[chunger]

Wild velocity variations continued at my last visit to the chrono. However, I shot enough rounds of this load (~50) through the chrono to get some average data. . . It seems I'm making ~750 fps with 4.1 grains.

I'm having wild velocity variations however at up to 105.3 fps with the lowest of all recorded shots 688.7 fps and the highest 794 fps.

I suspect I'm not dropping powder consistantly in .45 ACP. I noticed that Dillon and others on the forum strongly recommend setting the case flare to .010 or over in order to ensure full, consistant powder bar movement. I did not have my powder die set this way, and was having trouble at times getting a round into the flared case. I've made an adjustment to slightly over .010 and will run some more loads and test again.

I think I'm going to back the load down to 4.05 grains of clays because a lot of folks are running FMJ at 1.25" OAL. .. and I'm using JHP at 1.227". I know this powder is fast, I probably won't see excessive pressure signs on .45 ACP primers 'til it's too late, and I don't want to push it especially if I'm having erratic powder throws. I'm also going to try some One Shot lube on the cases to get the press running a bit smoother. I've been running them dry up 'til now.

Just did some powder throws:

4

4

4.1

4

4.1

4.1

4.1

4

4.1

4.1

4.05

4.05

4.05

4

4.1

4.1

4.1

4.1

4.1

4.1

4.1

4

3rd time to the chrono will be the charm

Edited December 6, 2006 by chunger

[yoshidaex]

Clays doesn't meter so well hence the possible variations. Powder Measure Calibratioin . If you haven't read thru that yet, it'll give you some good tips about getting consistent charges. The one shot will make cycling the press easier. Theres another tip around here that tells you how to polish the insides of the powder measure so the powder flow is smoother. don't know where it is but i'll post it when i find it.

[chunger]

Hmmm. . . seems I'm metering within .1 grain. I'm not sure if it's reasonable to expect more from the machine? I've been getting my settings as per Brian's recommendation of measuring 4 throws and dividing by 4 to average my way to the target setting. I don't start loading until I get about 20 throws or 5 weighings within .1 grain.

My .45 loads in titegroup to this point also show the same velocity variations, however, my 9mm loads in titegroup show very consistant velocities. The one shot really really smoothed things out a lot. It seems even my OAL's have become more consistant with the One Shot, and with the case flare set to .010, I really feel the powder measure bottom out good on the down stroke. . . strange thing is primer seating feels smoother as well with lube even though I do not deprime before case cleaning. Mabe my arms aren't pulling as hard so it feels easier since I don't have to shift weight as much to change lever stroke directions. I've loaded up some more rounds and will need to visit the chrono again to see how I did this time. I also loaded up a batch of bear creek bullets. . . I got a test pack from a local rep, and I thought it might be good to see if it be the bullets that are causing my problems.

Thanks for all the tips. Looks like I'm making PF no with Clays, so the powder is viable. I just need to see if I can get it consistant FPS now

Edited December 6, 2006 by chunger

[yoshidaex]

my 4.2 grn loads nets me a average SD of 16 and a average ES of 50. Though I do go to the extreme of using one headstamp for a batch of loads (around 500 at a time). One brand of headstamp might get you lower SD and ES numbers.

[chunger]

All of my loads so far have been with Speer brass. . . I just ran out of Speer, but my brass is sorted by brand.

[yoshidaex]

seems like you did almost everything to get rid of out of whack deviations. i guess measuring each charge so its exactly what you want is an option but that defeats the whole progressive press concept. you could do the individual measuring to verify your findings.... how about different brand of primers? i use federal LPP. other than that, you're on your own. sorry i can't be of any more assitance.

[DougCarden]

It isnt the CLAYS...it is the barrel. I had to bump up my load .02 as well when I rebarreled my Springfield with a KART. I have a worn in Barsto in my other 1911. The new tight KART needed more powder with Jacketed bullets to make my 173-175 PF cushion.

I think it is probably just the barrel. They are all individual, like children, and have to be loaded for differently

Regards,

DougC

[Chuck Merriam]

Quick hi-jack----How smokey are precisions (black bullet) with clays. I have been thinking of trying that combo. Seems as though I could come in at a safer charge with no pressure signs. Might give me the margin of error I need/want due to the .5 grain less powder to make the same fps. Chunger..if it is not too smokey this might be an answer to your tight/slow barrel. Should be faster than even a plated bullet.

[chunger]

Quick hi-jack----How smokey are precisions (black bullet) with clays.

I've loaded up about 30 bear creek black bullets. . . haven't had a chance to get back to the chrono, but I'll post how they do.

[yoshidaex]

Clays and Precision or MasterBlaster bullets smoke less than titegroup. The key word here is "less". It still smokes but not as bad as hard cast lead. The little smoke produced from clays and the moly bullets didn't bother me but our last match was SUPER windy. Props falling over and targets flying away.... I had a good dose of dirt for lunch that day

[ryucasta]

Hope this helps. For a more detailed analysis please provide the specifications of the bullet I.e. Length, Width, Jacket, Plated etc...

45hp.pdf

[Harmon]

with a 230 grain FMJ, at 1.250 4.0 grians clays makes 168 pf in my springer barrel.

hodgdon shows a max OAL of less than 1.250 which means that you could increase past 4.0 without going into the red.

If you still cant get there w/o problems, just use the titegroup

harmon

[Mayonaise]

My barrel is a bit slow, and my clays test loads are not making power factor.. . I'm wondering what to do.

Kart 5" barrel

Zero 230 grain JHP

OAL 1.2275"

Crimp 1.471"

You might bring your crimp down to 1.469. More consistant and less likely to get setback.

[LPatterson]

My barrel is a bit slow, and my clays test loads are not making power factor.. . I'm wondering what to do.

Kart 5" barrel

Zero 230 grain JHP

OAL 1.2275"

Crimp 1.471"

You might bring your crimp down to 1.469. More consistant and less likely to get setback.

A .471 crimp should be fine, I would start to experiment with a different brand of brass. Admittedly I used a different powder but but brass made a change. WST in different brass

[chunger]

Hello,

Well, it's been a while since I've gone shooting. See, I've been on this money saving kick as of late, and buying stocks. . .

Because I'd been begging a chrono from local Kevin C like 4 times now, I decided it was time to get one, so I picked up a cheap Chrony Master Beta, and it worked great today. I tested my known factory load w/ it, and it seems to measure similar to the PACT Chrono I had borrowed previously. Well, the interface is the MOST confusing thing I have EVER seen. In this day and age with OS X and Vista and 1000's of cell phones and PDA's, you'd think you can find some engineer in India or China to make you a good, intuitive interface. . . ok. . . rant off. .. I'll just bring my manual everywhere. . .

I tried some Bear Creek Moly Coated bullets with the same setup, and they shot beautifully. . .

4.0 grains Clays 10 shots

Average 784.5 fps

Low 770.5

high 799.2

ES 28.75

SD 10.81

10 shots

Average 781.4

Low 773.6

High 791.2

ES 17.55

SD 5.19

This load seems acceptable enough to move on to accuracy testing for me. . .

My Zero JHP loads are still all over the place. . . local guys at the range are saying I might try tightening up my crimp as suggested in here. I will try going down to .69-some on the crimp.

4.1 grains Clays Zero JHP OAL 2.227 crimp .471 ---->10 shot strings

Average 741.7

L 718

H 763

ES 45.75

SD 15.81

Average 737.2

L 709.8

H 771.5

ES 61.7

SD 20.54

Average 744.1

L 691.5

H 825

ES 133.5

SD 36.31

Ok. . . I'm about to pull my hair out . . . well, actually, I shaved it off in 1994, but that's beside the point. First off, it's still not making major, and I don't know if I want to push 4.2 grains of Clays on a short JHP load. . . and then. . . Extreme spread of 133.5 ???!!@@#!!% Due to the fact that my titegroup loads also display this kind of varience, coupled with the fact that my TG 9mm loads run consistant, I'm arriving at the conclusion that there is something physically wrong with my 230 Grain JHP loads. My gun likes Winchester 230 grain JHP, and shoots those consistantly at ~850 fps. The OAL is shorter than mine and the crimp is very much tighter than mine. I'm going to play around with the seating depth and crimp now to see if I can't get these velocities to settle down because it doesn't seem powder specific. . . All of the Zero JHP loads are all over the place. I hope that more crimp is the key.

Edited April 29, 2007 by chunger

[Overkill]

Hello,

Well, it's been a while since I've gone shooting. See, I've been on this money saving kick as of late, and buying stocks. . .

Because I'd been begging a chrono from local Kevin C like 4 times now, I decided it was time to get one, so I picked up a cheap Chrony Master Beta, and it worked great today. I tested my known factory load w/ it, and it seems to measure similar to the PACT Chrono I had borrowed previously. Well, the interface is the MOST confusing thing I have EVER seen. In this day and age with OS X and Vista and 1000's of cell phones and PDA's, you'd think you can find some engineer in India or China to make you a good, intuitive interface. . . ok. . . rant off. .. I'll just bring my manual everywhere. . .

I tried some Bear Creek Moly Coated bullets with the same setup, and they shot beautifully. . .

4.0 grains Clays 10 shots

Average 784.5 fps

Low 770.5

high 799.2

ES 28.75

SD 10.81

10 shots

Average 781.4

Low 773.6

High 791.2

ES 17.55

SD 5.19

This load seems acceptable enough to move on to accuracy testing for me. . .

My Zero JHP loads are still all over the place. . . local guys at the range are saying I might try tightening up my crimp as suggested in here. I will try going down to .69-some on the crimp.

4.1 grains Clays Zero JHP OAL 2.227 crimp .471 ---->10 shot strings

Average 741.7

L 718

H 763

ES 45.75

SD 15.81

Average 737.2

L 709.8

H 771.5

ES 61.7

SD 20.54

Average 744.1

L 691.5

H 825

ES 133.5

SD 36.31

Ok. . . I'm about to pull my hair out . . . well, actually, I shaved it off in 1994, but that's beside the point. First off, it's still not making major, and I don't know if I want to push 4.2 grains of Clays on a short JHP load. . . and then. . . Extreme spread of 133.5 ???!!@@#!!% Due to the fact that my titegroup loads also display this kind of varience, coupled with the fact that my TG 9mm loads run consistant, I'm arriving at the conclusion that there is something physically wrong with my 230 Grain JHP loads. My gun likes Winchester 230 grain JHP, and shoots those consistantly at ~850 fps. The OAL is shorter than mine and the crimp is very much tighter than mine. I'm going to play around with the seating depth and crimp now to see if I can't get these velocities to settle down because it doesn't seem powder specific. . . All of the Zero JHP loads are all over the place. I hope that more crimp is the key.

Two things. First... Have you talked to the guy that made the barrel? I'd be really interested to see if its in spec. I just today chronoed some 45/230gr Bear Creek/Clays loads and I was making major (165pf) at 3.5 grs out of a stock glock barrel. 4.2 grains gave me 822fps. Second....I was speed reading and thought you said you picked up a cheep corny master bater.

[chunger]

Hello again,

My trips to the range these days are few and far between. . . not good, but I made it out this weekend and dragged a couple new shooter friends out to IPSC practice, and it was fun. Which made me realize I'm brand spankin' new at this also and shooting is a lot more fun than loading. I ended up using my subcompact XD9 since I wanted my friends to actually be able to hit stuff their 1st time out. But, I was able to get more data

Last time I was out, I showed some folks at the range my bullets, and they suggested crimping down more as my .471 looked like there was actually still flare on the cases. The hollowpoints seat deeper than the FMJ I suppose. So this time, I crimped everything I had down to .4685

Results are still mixed and I'm still a bit frustrated.

Clays 4.025 grain

Zero 230 JHP OAL 1.2275

crimp .4685

WLP primer

Federal brass

10shots

L 669.0

H 743.9

A 722.2

ES 74.92

SD 20.88

10shots

L 680

H 747.5

A 724.0

ES 67.1

SD 21

10shots

L 702.1

H 744.6

A 725.3

ES 42.51

SD 11.74

-------------------------

Clay 4.1 grain

Zero 230 JHP AOL 1.2275

Crimp .4685

WLP primer

Federal brass

L 716.9

H 770.5

A 738.6

ES 53.67

SD 17.46

L 708.3

H 752.3

A 738.2

ES 44.03

SD 16.61

--------------------------

Titegroup 4.8 grain

Zero 230 JHP AOL 1.2275

Crimp .4685

WLP primer

Federal brass

L 731.9

H 808.2

A 777.5

ES 76.29

SD 24.55

L 748.5

H 799.5

A 784.2

ES 51.02

SD 15.09

L 755.8

H 790.5

A 778.1

ES 34.65

SD 12.04

I thought even though I'm not able to get consistant loads in .45 ACP yet, I thought I should start shooting some groups to the best of my meager abilities right now at 25 yards to see if what I have will work. I didn't have a screwdriver on me so I wasn't able to make an upward click adjustment on the Bomar. This is with the titegroup load. I'm hoping it's good enough to trust for using for now since the loads have functioned flawlessly. This is with my arms resting on the bench and a not-too good monkey behind the trigger. The one inside the X may have been a flyer, but I'm not able to call it that well yet at this distance, so I'll assume it's not.

This was the 1st time out I was able to put a decent amount of rounds down the tube, and the TG is filthy for me in this setup, I have black soot all over my hands with titegroup in .45ACP. In 9mm, the titegroup is clean, so I'm thinking I will look for other powder in .45, but I'm thinking for refining my bullet rolling process, TG and Clays should be able to tell me if I'm consistant, and right now, I'm still fighting OAL issues with the JHP bullets. I get variations between 1.225 - 1.30 on the same setting on my Lee Seating die.

The powder throws are very consistant and within .1 grains every throw for the ones that I measured which is a lot right now. I'm thinking I should try either a Dillon Seating die or a Redding die. . . something designed for flat nose bullets. Other than that, in hindsight, there seems to be a pattern of the 1st shot (hand cycled) in a string to be the slow shot in my string. I'm thinking this could be due to still not having enough crimp but I guess the other cause could be barrel temp, but it's not like I'm waiting that long between strings.

So, I may try to crimp down what I have a bit more and see if I get any positive changes. I think I'm moving in the right direction as I'm not seeing the HUGE like 100 FPS variations anymore. It's cut to like 70 fps More work to come. I'm not terribly pleased with myself in this .45 ACP saga, but I guess I have something shootable for now.

Edited May 28, 2007 by chunger

[HSMITH]

If you aren't using Winchester primers get some, they are a little stronger than most and will help minutely with the consistency. Crank in another tenth of Clays and then another tenth. It will get you to major with some cushion and more consistency.

If your crimp is anything more than JUST straightening the case out after flaring it is too much. It is incredible to me that nearly every reloader out there you will run into doesn't understand this, but it explains why we get soo much bad advise regarding crimp.

Don't worry about the OAL variation unless you are using a comparator to measure them. If you are measuring from the end of the bullet to the end of the case and are seeing .005" variation you are doing very well. If you don't believe that measure the bullets before loading, you will see most if not all of that variation in the bullet itself. Even if you are using a comparator now and the .005" variation is true it isn't enough to even bother with. 45 is a low pressure cartridge and that isn't enough variation to chase from a velocity or an accuracy standpoint. It is good to go right now.

The slow shot is temp related, not crimp related. Shoot a magazine fast, then immediately shoot another mag over the chrono to prove it.