Ss Division Questions

[omnia1911]

Why isn't the new SS division using the same equipment rules as the SS Classic?

In spite of it having a provisional status, why do the new SS division classifiers have to be archived, rather than posted/used like the other classifiers?

[Flexmoney]

Those questions have been answered about a zillon times already.

[omnia1911]

Those questions have been answered about a zillon times already.

Didn't mean to let loose a bee in your bonnet Flex.

I have done a search and read a number of posts by Gary Stevens regarding the classification issue, but didn't see any technical reason for not being able to post the SS classifiers, rather than just archiving them. Did see many posts as to what is being done, just not why.

This is a post from Gary:

Since this is provisional, we didn't want to incorporate it into the classification system unless it is made permanent at a point in the future.

Is there a technical problem with the database if the SS classifiers are posted, then deleted if the new division isn't kept after its trial period?

I'm not questioning the present method about of dealing with the SS classifiers per say, but questioning why the classifiers can't be posted "as if" the SS division was not provisional, rather than "hiding" them as archived material.

As to the rules differences, I have read several posts, including Gary's, but haven't seen any posts explaining the technical reasons why USPSA needed a different set a rules for its SS division, only that there is a similar set of rules to the SSC. Do the SSC rules conflict with the USPSA rule book? Since the SSC is meshed with the USPSA SS nationals, one set of rules had to be chosen. As of now, that match is using the USPSA SS division rules. Why do we have to make a choice between one or the other?

Since the questions have been answered somewhere, maybe you can help me out Flex.

Thanks.

Edited November 27, 2006 by omnia1911

[Flexmoney]

Since the questions have been answered somewhere, maybe you can help me out Flex.

Thanks.

I would, but I gotta get rid of these bees first.

[driver8M3]

This is a post from Gary:

Since this is provisional, we didn't want to incorporate it into the classification system unless it is made permanent at a point in the future.

i think uspsa didnt want a provisional division to mess up our perfect classification system!

[Gary Stevens]

Well, let me try this again.

The bottom line on the classifications is Dave Thomas would have fought the PSSD if I had insisted on the classifications. End result, better than average chance that we would not have the PSSD today, which would make some happy and some sad. As to the technical end, I don't know, except it causes extra work for the staff if they have to remove them I guess. I don't really know.

As to the SSC, we started this off in consultation with the SSC on many points. We (I) still consult with the SSC on points of concern. It is important to maintain the relationship, if we can, with the SSC for several reasons. However, this is a USPSA venture. The rules are crafted to try to meet the needs of our members across the nation, for the long run not just a specific speciality match. This is why we have crafted our rules differently than the SSC.

Gary

[D.Hayden]

It's probably been posted somewhere but..

I hadn'treally paid attention to the classifiers.. I just figured mine would appear under my USPSA listing (I shot my first one this month).

Is there anyplace that the SS classifier results are posted? Even anonymously?

[ChuckS]

It's probably been posted somewhere but..

I hadn'treally paid attention to the classifiers.. I just figured mine would appear under my USPSA listing (I shot my first one this month).

Is there anyplace that the SS classifier results are posted? Even anonymously?

Since the results are only archived and not processed, it's my guess that no one will really know the HHF for the classifiers in SS until they become official. All I do is take the results from the club listing (actually, I write them down at the match) and plug them into L-10 divison on the Ohio classifier calculator to get an idea of how I did. I am also keeping a list to make sure they surface when (if) the division becomes real.

Shot 06-05 today...

[omnia1911]

It's probably been posted somewhere but..

I hadn'treally paid attention to the classifiers.. I just figured mine would appear under my USPSA listing (I shot my first one this month).

Is there anyplace that the SS classifier results are posted? Even anonymously?

Since the results are only archived and not processed, it's my guess that no one will really know the HHF for the classifiers in SS until they become official. All I do is take the results from the club listing (actually, I write them down at the match) and plug them into L-10 divison on the Ohio classifier calculator to get an idea of how I did. I am also keeping a list to make sure they surface when (if) the division becomes real.

Shot 06-05 today...

...but for 3 loooong years???

Well, let me try this again.

The bottom line on the classifications is Dave Thomas would have fought the PSSD if I had insisted on the classifications. End result, better than average chance that we would not have the PSSD today, which would make some happy and some sad. As to the technical end, I don't know, except it causes extra work for the staff if they have to remove them I guess. I don't really know.

As to the SSC, we started this off in consultation with the SSC on many points. We (I) still consult with the SSC on points of concern. It is important to maintain the relationship, if we can, with the SSC for several reasons. However, this is a USPSA venture. The rules are crafted to try to meet the needs of our members across the nation, for the long run not just a specific speciality match. This is why we have crafted our rules differently than the SSC.

Gary

I hope archiving the classifiers is more than storing the paper work in a box in the back room for 3 years. Can you imagine the amount of work it would take to enter all of that data if the SS division is given full standing? That alone may kill the deal from Sedro Woolley's perspective.

I thought it would be a good thing for the competitors if all of the SS matches that are being held around the country were using the same rules. I know we want to give our baby its own identity, but the SSC has a pretty good track record.

[omnia1911]

Does having more divisions (PSSD classifiers) mean more work for an already over worked Sedro Woolley?

If so, couldn't the same be said for increasing membership and having them pumping out a larger volume of classifiers?

[D.Hayden]

Thanks, now some of these threads are making sense.

So, sounds like there's not even a way to check if the classifier was even submitted?

So, I'm still paying to shoot it, but for no reason.. lol

[Gary Stevens]

Rob Boudrie can tell you exactly how many classifiers have been shot in PSSD, which one's have been shot, which clubs have shot them, etc. That indicates to me that they are in the system somewhere, as I doubt that Rob is looking through that box under Dave Thomas's desk

All that being said, I don't know enough about the computer system to give specific answers about specific quesions in this area.

Gary

[Alan Meek]

If your club is uploading the classification data via the internet the SSD hitfactors are uploaded at the same time.

So there is not a whole lot of work at the USPSA office if the clubs use the classifier upload service.

Additionally, the regular fee is being charged for the SSD classifiers. So I feel there really should be a push to start processing the SSD classifiers. If the SSD fails the classifiers can be integrated with L-10. Is that in a sense the reverse of what we are doing right now, using the highest classification on record in any other division except Open, unless Open is the only classification you hold.

For all people interested in SSD start contacting your AD with sound reasons as to why the SSD classifiers should be processed.

For those that are holding back from participating in SSD due to the fact that the classifiers are not being processed, there is the primary reason to send to your AD.

We have seen what the guys that shoot revolver have done, let's band together as SSD shooters and make a run!

Alan

[omnia1911]

The bottom line on the classifications is Dave Thomas would have fought the PSSD if I had insisted on the classifications. End result, better than average chance that we would not have the PSSD today, which would make some happy and some sad.

Gary

I thought that the BOD voted on allowing the PSSD to go forward. The Executive Director is not on the BOD and could not vote for, or against, the PSSD implementation.

In spite of the misgivings that some of the management may have about the PSSD being allowed to move forward, you would think that after the BOD vote, differences would be put aside, and all would work for the success of the PSSD, no matter what it took. The classifiers seem to be an important piece of the puzzle.

[zhunter]

The classifiers seem to be an important piece of the puzzle.

YES THEY DO

[Nik Habicht]

The bottom line on the classifications is Dave Thomas would have fought the PSSD if I had insisted on the classifications. End result, better than average chance that we would not have the PSSD today, which would make some happy and some sad.

Gary

I thought that the BOD voted on allowing the PSSD to go forward. The Executive Director is not on the BOD and could not vote for, or against, the PSSD implementation.

In spite of the misgivings that some of the management may have about the PSSD being allowed to move forward, you would think that after the BOD vote, differences would be put aside, and all would work for the success of the PSSD, no matter what it took. The classifiers seem to be an important piece of the puzzle.

IIRC, the decision to warehouse the classifiers was made as part of the proposal to get the PSSD approved in the first place for a three year provisional period. It's entirely possible, that Dave Thomas' opinions during the board meeting might have swayed an AD or two to vote against the proposal.......

Sometimes you have to obtain what you want in pieces......

[Gary Stevens]

What Nik said 100 percent. Gee Nik, I don't remember seeing you there

Gary

[zhunter]

Why is Dave Thomas against Single Stack?

What are his arguments?

[Gary Stevens]

You have skipped to a wrong conclusion. Dave is not against SS. What he is against is putting data for a provisional division into the classifier data base.

While we can speculate that this or that could be done with the scores if the division does not become real, I have to defer to those who know the system better than I on this point.

Gary

[zhunter]

Gary

Thanks, now I understand better. It sounded like he was against the SSD.

Gary, is there any chance, in your opinion, that PSSD will become SSD before the 3 years? I am ONLY asking for YOUR opinion.

[Gary Stevens]

Contact me direct if you will

garystevens@alltel.net

[LPatterson]

Additionally, the regular fee is being charged for the SSD classifiers. So I feel there really should be a push to start processing the SSD classifiers. If the SSD fails the classifiers can be integrated with L-10. Is that in a sense the reverse of what we are doing right now, using the highest classification on record in any other division except Open, unless Open is the only classification you hold.

Your last statement is only true after the last BOD minutes were published, prior to that it was any division. If all we ever shot was classifiers then integrating PSSD classifiers into L10 might sound reasonable. But we are using a classification system using different types of equipment and location. How can you say it is the same to use a race holster located any where disired with mag holders from bellybutton to A hole against a holster & mag pouches that have to be behind the point of the hip. The elimination of the DOH will further muddy the waters about classifiers already submitted.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Right from the start, everyone knew the classifiers wouldn't go into the system for 3 years.

Right from the start, everyone was told to classify in L-10 if they were new and had no classification.

Now the wailing and gnashing of teeth because the above is still true. Why is that?

If you want or need your classifiers to count right now, shoot another division.

[Nik Habicht]

Additionally, the regular fee is being charged for the SSD classifiers. So I feel there really should be a push to start processing the SSD classifiers. If the SSD fails the classifiers can be integrated with L-10. Is that in a sense the reverse of what we are doing right now, using the highest classification on record in any other division except Open, unless Open is the only classification you hold.

Your last statement is only true after the last BOD minutes were published, prior to that it was any division. If all we ever shot was classifiers then integrating PSSD classifiers into L10 might sound reasonable. But we are using a classification system using different types of equipment and location. How can you say it is the same to use a race holster located any where disired with mag holders from bellybutton to A hole against a holster & mag pouches that have to be behind the point of the hip. The elimination of the DOH will further muddy the waters about classifiers already submitted.

Counting SS Classifiers in any other division than Production and Revolver should work ---- because the more restrictive SS holster/magpouch position is legal in the other divisions......

When I occasionally shoot Limited, I still use the same belt set-up as in Production....

[AikiDale]

What Nik said 100 percent. Gee Nik, I don't remember seeing you there

Gary

Nik was operating the cameras. You weren't supposed to see him.