Poll Divisions To Keep

[Jim Norman]

This is a very unscientific poll, but I think I have given the choices that seem to be on the table.

I have a bias. I admit it upfront. I like L-10. I shoot L-10, I also shoot Limited, Production and on occasion, Open. I have shot Revolver and will again. I will shoot Single Stack if I can get my gear in order at little expense.

I do not see a need to do away with L-10. I would like to expand Single Stack, if it is a keeper, to include more single stacks than the basic 1911. There are many guns that are not overly competative in L-10 that are not allowed in Single Stack as the rules are currently written and they are also not allowed in Production. Opening up SS to these would allow more people to play our game with out hurting those that are already here.

I am asking that you only answer this poll if it affects you. In other words, If you don't shoot L-10 or Single Stack please don't vote. It doesn't currently affect you. The proposals to eliminate L-10 only affect those of us that shoot it.

Edited: To clear up a misconception, you don't need to be curretly shooting L-10 or SS to vote, but you should have shot them or at least be in the final stages of planning to shot them, that is, already have spent the money to get in.

Thank You

Jim

Edited November 18, 2006 by Jim Norman

[SteveZ]

Jim...I've often thought about doing a similar poll...but didn't. The problem as I see it with doing a poll like this is that you'll get input from people who don't shoot the division, don't know anything about the divisions (does anyone but the BOD know what "stock gun" is?) or don't care about the divisions in question. So you'll have, say maybe 30% of the membership passionate about the results and 70% who don't care. Those 70% (who have nothing to loose) will swamp the 30% (who have everything to loose) every time.

[BSeevers]

I am asking that you only answer this poll if it affects you. In other words, If you don't shoot L-10 or Single Stack please don't vote. It doesn't currently affect you. The proposals to eliminate L-10 only affect those of us that shoot it.

Thank You

Jim

Jim

I have shot both, will shoot both, but aren't shooting both, right now, but believe I have an understanding of the implications and I have great desire for the sport to grow. I really don't understand why a vote doesn't count if you don't shoot SS/L10. It all effects me and you. I saw hordes leave in the 90's, I saw the creation of a "splinter" sport and I do have a horse in this race even if I only shot Open last year.

[Tim James]

Jim

I have shot both, will shoot both, but aren't shooting both, right now, but believe I have an understanding of the implications and I have great desire for the sport to grow. I really don't understand why a vote doesn't count if you don't shoot SS/L10. It all effects me and you. I saw hordes leave in the 90's, I saw the creation of a "splinter" sport and I do have a horse in this race even if I only shot Open last year.

Is there a post or summary on this forum about what happened in the 90s?? I'm already vaguely familiar with IDPA splitting away -- do you mean people left IPSC to go to IDPA, or did hordes leave practical shooting entirely?

I've been reading this forum for months and haven't picked up these details yet. I guess it's time for a lengthy archive search.

Edited November 18, 2006 by Tim James

[Micah]

After voting, it's nice to see that others feel as I do, and wish to keep the divisions!

[Chuck D]

Interesting vote tally but I'd suspect those "in the know" have different ideas.....

I ask myself how the rest of the IPSC world can live quite confortably with 5 Divisions and we can't seem to excape the gravitational pull of "eliminate this...add that..."

Edited November 18, 2006 by Chuck D

[sargenv]

I shoot Production and L10 and the only reason I don't shoot SS is that I don't own a single stack gun. The only one I ever had that was a single stack was a 645, but since it's a 1911 only division, I don't think it would qualify (or am I wrong?) I'd think any single stack could compete in that division, not just 1911's (Sig 220, H&K P7M8, S&W 645 or 4506, etc). As I understand it though, it's a 1911 only division.

I'd like to be proved wrong on that one

I like the way it is now and don't think we need more than 6 divisions unless we want to maybe add a provisional 22 division Ring the steel and score minor for all else... Naw..

Vince

[uscbigdawg]

Singlestack, I voted to keep it as a category in L-10 or Production (doesn't matter). It doesn't need it's own category.

L-10. While the "need" for it is slim to none with the sunset of the AWB, some folks like the 'challenge'. However, since the winning guns are 1911/STI/SVI/Glocks, et. al. that are available as hi-cap guns, why would you still want to shoot it. Just an opinion.

Above everything, quit adding divisions.

Rich

[vluc]

I shoot Production (mostly), L-10 on occasion, and would do SS if I could run my nice little SIG 225 - 8 round, single stack, nice little gun - may be a touch too small, but would like to play with it anyway if I could.

[MAShooter]

For those who wish to eliminate L-10, remember that while the AWB has sunset for many, there are places where it still exists (MA, NY, NJ, CA that I know of). Eliminating L-10 will take many out of the game. And yes, there are number of folks who shoot L-10 around here. Here in MA the only legal mags that hold more than 10 rounds had to be manufactured before the magic date in 1994.

PS: I shoot Limited, Production, L-10 and Revo. Will turn my Glock 35 into an open gun for fun next year. Keep what we have now.

Edited November 19, 2006 by MAShooter

[uscbigdawg]

Frankly, if it was up to me:

Open

Limited (w/ tag categories in L-10 & Revo)

Production (w/ tag category for SS)

That's it.

Oh...and I'd bring back the Military back to a special category, but that's just me.

Rich

[shred]

well, it was a horde of two that left USPSA locally in the 90's...

anyway, here's another totally separate idea I've been kicking around..

Two divisions:

1 - Pistols that fit in the box. ("Practical" guns)

2 - Pistols that don't fit in the box. ("Game" guns)

With 3 subdivisions each: anything-goes, a no-scopes, no-comps, and a DA-1st shot subdivision for each.

[EricBudd]

Singlestack, I voted to keep it as a category in L-10 or Production (doesn't matter). It doesn't need it's own category.

L-10. While the "need" for it is slim to none with the sunset of the AWB, some folks like the 'challenge'. However, since the winning guns are 1911/STI/SVI/Glocks, et. al. that are available as hi-cap guns, why would you still want to shoot it. Just an opinion.

Above everything, quit adding divisions.

Rich

I don't know, does anyone really need 16-20 rounds in a gun? Maybe we shoud just have Production, L10, and O10. Even if it isn't a matter of need, why do you want to pee in someone elses pool. If you don't like L10 don't shoot it.

Of course, there are also a whole bunch of guns that are great for L10 that would make poor limited guns du to capacity issues. It might be hard to get sponsors/advertisers if there are only a handful of competive guns guns to capacity.

Eric

[Middle Man]

Singlestack, I voted to keep it as a category in L-10 or Production (doesn't matter). It doesn't need it's own category.

L-10. While the "need" for it is slim to none with the sunset of the AWB, some folks like the 'challenge'. However, since the winning guns are 1911/STI/SVI/Glocks, et. al. that are available as hi-cap guns, why would you still want to shoot it. Just an opinion.

Above everything, quit adding divisions.

Rich

I don't know, does anyone really need 16-20 rounds in a gun? Maybe we shoud just have Production, L10, and O10. Even if it isn't a matter of need, why do you want to pee in someone elses pool. If you don't like L10 don't shoot it.

Of course, there are also a whole bunch of guns that are great for L10 that would make poor limited guns du to capacity issues. It might be hard to get sponsors/advertisers if there are only a handful of competive guns guns to capacity.

Eric

No matter the discussion, I'm sorry, that NEED question the incorrect question.

Edited November 19, 2006 by Middle Man

[EricBudd]

No matter the discussion, I'm sorry, that NEED question the incorrect question.

Exactly my point.

[uscbigdawg]

Actually, the statement of "need" was not based on the legitimacy of ownership. The question of "need" is the legitimacy of L-10 as a division in general. Some of us have been in this sport more than a minute and have seen far too many changes simply to placate to the few who end up whining about imbalances when those of us that have played the game for a while figure out a great solution (see the creation of SS since folks where whining about hi-cap framed pistol having an advantage in reloading).

BTW, there was a discussion of O-10 during the AWB. It came up during the exact same time as the creation of Limited 10.

Rich

[BSeevers]

well, it was a horde of two that left USPSA locally in the 90's...

anyway, here's another totally separate idea I've been kicking around..

Two divisions:

1 - Pistols that fit in the box. ("Practical" guns)

2 - Pistols that don't fit in the box. ("Game" guns)

With 3 subdivisions each: anything-goes, a no-scopes, no-comps, and a DA-1st shot subdivision for each.

You only had 2 people quit for IDPA? We lost a few more to cowboy later. Our attendance dropped 50% and hasn't reached the levels(club matches) that they were in the early 90's even with Production.

1. We lost quite a few idiots that we needed to lose. 2. We don't recruit new members as well as we could.

PS I believe the divisions Production, Limited 10 and SS are one of the keys to growing the sport.

Edited November 19, 2006 by BSeevers

[uscbigdawg]

Recruiting is the tough part. We get a lot of 1st and 2nd time shooters, but tend to lose them as they get intimidated by the seasoned shooters and don't have the big picture mentality of getting better.

It's a shame.

Rich

[bubback]

Well Dawg,I agree and disagree.We need more divisions to attract more shooters,but we also need to recruit far,far better.The old grumpy bags o' crap need to shut up so we can attract some younger shooters.We also need to change senior to 60-70 and super senior to 71 and up.

[big_kahuna]

L-10. While the "need" for it is slim to none with the sunset of the AWB, some folks like the 'challenge'. However, since the winning guns are 1911/STI/SVI/Glocks, et. al. that are available as hi-cap guns, why would you still want to shoot it. Just an opinion.

Rich

Rich,

I respect where you are coming from, yet I must bet to differ on the issue of AWB sunsetting. I'm a newbie to USPSA but have seen a thing or two, so take my opinion for with a grain of salt (or maybe a salt lick). Respectfully submitted for your consideration:

I'm a proponent of L-10. I believe there is a need in many places, among them here in California. Let me start by saying I shoot L-10 by choice (and my son shoots L-10 also). I can, and occasionally do, shoot Limited. I can do this because I legally own and possess a few precious pre-ban standard capacity magazines. However, newbies in California (who do not already own such magazines) cannot legally acquire the gear to be competitive in Limited or Open. This is why L-10 is valuable in my opinion.

Many people (mostly friends/coworkers/colleagues) who I've exposed to USPSA become interested, and want to join the fun. They've come to matches to "check it out". They see the "old hands" with their open Caspians, Paras, and S_Is. They see me and my son with our L-10 rigs. Race gear gets their attention. Speed holsters, magwells, dots and compensators are the stuff they are interested in. These prospective recruits also see the smattering of production guns and one or two single-stack 1911's. So, now they think they have choices tied to the size of their investment... production, SS, L-10, Limited and open (in roughly ascending order of cost).

They bring in a dusty Ruger or Beretta, and shoot a "try it out" match. They have a blast and get hooked. They continue to see that the guys with the race gear are finishing on top, and they start considering dropping some money on a race rig. Comments I've heard: "God, that magwell must make reloading easier... look at that guy's extended mags, he doesn't have to reload half as often as I did... my nylon holster is pretty sucky compared to that kydex or CR speed..." Then they borrow or try someone's race gun and the hook is set. "Wow, this thing works LOTS better than my old Ruger P85! Light smooth trigger, huge magwell, I gotta get me one of these!" They decide to check out how much it's really gonna cost to get decent gear... they start asking questions and shopping around.

Now the reality sets in. New shooter: "Open is expensive, and requires some gymnastic loopholing of our local laws... and how does one get those 28+ round magazines? Oooh, it's a felony to import or otherwise acquire them... Forget it, let's look at limited... Hmm, not much better, same deal on the magazines... AHHH, Limited-10. One can set one of these up and use commonly available 10-round California-legal magazines. Magwell, +0 mag extensions, sights, trigger job, kydex holster, pouches... Looks like the only reasonable way for a newbie to get a "California Race Gun". What a deal!"

Now more realit sets in. New shooter: "The guys at the match say that L-10 as a division may not survive. Better check the BENOS forums... Whoa, look at all this... Apparently, the other states have no such restrictions on magazine capacity... and no-one besides us in CA/MA/NY/NJ/HI seems to care that we are still under legal restrictions. Well, I guess I could try Production, but I can't use a magwell... I really wanted a magwell, just like the Kahuna and those "race guys"... Forget it... I guess Kahuna got in when the getting was good.. but it's not a good deal for us so I guess we won't be joining/continuing in USPSA. Dust off the golf clubs, I'm hitting the driving range."

This is what I see scaring off new prospects in places like where I live... instability of rules and divisions that may render initial investments obsolete. I know folks that are willing to spend time and money on this. They just want to know that their return on investment will be as good in 3 months and 3 years.

[Chuck D]

"This is what I see scaring off new prospects in places like where I live... instability of rules and divisions that may render initial investments obsolete. I know folks that are willing to spend time and money on this. They just want to know that their return on investment will be as good in 3 months and 3 years."

Well said....

"Apparently, the other states have no such restrictions on magazine capacity... and no-one besides us in CA/MA/NY/NJ/HI seems to care that we are still under legal restrictions."

I've received my fair share of personal e-mails that echo this belief.....loudly.

I miss the old days.....honestly.

Edited November 19, 2006 by Chuck D

[shred]

Competition guns aren't investments. You have a reasonable right to expect at least a couple years use out of your equipment expense, but to expect it to last and remain competitive forever... I don't think so.

This is why I like a phased-in approach to rules changes. After 2 years, any equipment cost should be well under any other shooting expense of any serious shooter. "Effective one month from now" is not a good long-term plan for happy members.

The only problem I have with a bazillion divisions (assuming they actually draw shooters.. a couple perpetually are in the one-to-zero competitors range locally) is how freaking long it takes to get through an awards ceremony.. Can we get the BOD to put a cap on those??

[D.Hayden]

I can't believe that people who shoot L-10 or Single Stack, would vote to eliminate that division. That just doens't make sense.

I shoot all divisions now not except Open.

[uscbigdawg]

Frankly, if it was up to me:

Open

Limited (w/ tag categories in L-10 & Revo)

Production (w/ tag category for SS)

That's it.

Oh...and I'd bring back the Military back to a special category, but that's just me.

Rich

A - My home of record is in California and I will be returning there once I'm done playing Army, and have lived and will continue to live as long as both I and the fiance want to. However, we'll move when either of us doesn't want to deal with the state any longer (AZ again!)

B - While I personally would disolve L-10 as a seperate division, it can still awarded as a seperate tag category. So again, you can still have 10 round pistols and 10-round mags and race gear, you will just compete for overall Limited for a class win, but there will also be a seperate notification for L-10. Like we do for Senior, Super Senior, Lady (and used to do for Military but no uproar over that).

C - As for believing that you have to do invest in full race rigs, that's why there's Production. So, you can bring out your Glock, Beretta, SIG, CZ, et. al. And sorry, if a magwell is going to be the difference between you shooting and not shooting ('cause you can still change what's important...sights, trigger and barrel) then don't play 'cause you don't get it anyways. It's not about having the same equipment as the next guy. It's about improving yourself as a shooter and just so happens that you stomp the hell out of the next guy.

The divisions above are more than adequate. We do not need, nor does the BOD want, a division for every single variation of every pistol out there. It's ridiculous and unrealistic.

Just my $0.02. Of course, I'm also for changing our matches to like IPSC...no classes, but that would never get passed.

Rich

[R/T Performance]

Competition guns aren't investments. You have a reasonable right to expect at least a couple years use out of your equipment expense, but to expect it to last and remain competitive forever... I don't think so.

This is why I like a phased-in approach to rules changes. After 2 years, any equipment cost should be well under any other shooting expense of any serious shooter. "Effective one month from now" is not a good long-term plan for happy members.

The only problem I have with a bazillion divisions (assuming they actually draw shooters.. a couple perpetually are in the one-to-zero competitors range locally) is how freaking long it takes to get through an awards ceremony.. Can we get the BOD to put a cap on those??

If I spend 1500+ on a gun and gear I better get 5-10 years of use out of it.

I work hard for my money and expect to get every penny of enjoyment out of it

YES L10 is where I am headed and Single stack

Been shooting production and Spent good money on

XD

Trigger job

Fiber sights

CR speed

Safirland holster

Speed comp mag holders

I would like to see major scoring in production

But opted to mag well and big button and move to l10(With base pads XD are a 9mm frame and cannot fit more than 14-5 rounds way under what 2011 40 can fit)

I would like to see a more beginner set rules(Sorry fellow gamers)

But standard carry type equipment No over belts.No drop holsters.Heck maybe Iwb holster.(Not cover garments)

Single stack is a true throw back to the sport and I Love it (May have been cause I actually won a club match)

Bring a 1911 and a couple double mag holders an go.

L10 also fits most the pistol built under the ban cannot compete in major limited becuase the max cap with base pads will cause then to be short handed.

Note I am 2 years into the sport.